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Is Obama a Socialist? September 9, 2008

Posted by federalist in Taxation, Uncategorized.

Today I had an inquiry from a journalist.  I don’t know whether she will use my response, but since I’m always eager to share my opinion here are the questions, followed by my answer.

Some have criticized Barack Obama’s tax plan, which includes income redistribution — taking income from the top 5% and giving it to the bottom 95% — as a socialist proposition. In your opinion, is it? And in your opinion, would it be effective?

Is Barack Obama a socialist? If so, why? If not, why not?

It is fair to characterize the Obama tax reforms as socialist, in that they both increase wealth redistribution and increase the proportion of wealth allocated by government.  The Obama campaign claims that its plan would reduce tax revenue as a fraction of GDP, but this is misleading: A significant amount of the Obama tax plan consists of new “refundable tax credits,” which are effectively welfare payments handled by the IRS.  To illustrate why this is a socialist practice, consider the extreme case in which the tax code did nothing but take property from the top 5% of earners and distribute it as “tax refunds” to everyone else.  The Obama campaign would argue that in this case the government has no (net) tax revenue, but this arrangement meets every definition of classical socialism since the government controls the distribution of a majority of wealth.

Would the Obama wealth transfers be effective?  That depends upon one’s objectives.  Such a plan could be very effective in getting him elected if three conditions were satisfied:

  1. Voters believe that they have no probability of ending up in the top 5%.
  2. Voters cast their votes entirely out of selfish interests.
  3. Voters believe that this wealth distribution will not reduce their long-term well-being.

In that case why wouldn’t they vote to line their pockets with the assets of the most wealthy?  I hope and believe that none of these criteria are satisfied.  I.e.,

  1. Voters believe that they have upward mobility, and that they have an opportunity during their life to be among to top earners.
  2. Voters believe that principles like freedom and the integrity of private property are worth preserving, even if it involves sacrificing opportunities to profit at the expense of a fellow citizen.
  3. Voters realize that taxing the best producers will tend to suppress production.  I.e., even though they may end up with a greater portion of “the pie,” the pie will get smaller rather than larger.

Is Obama a socialist?  Clearly his tax proposals are more socialist than the current system.  I think it’s fair to apply the label to someone advocating socialist policies.



1. ReasonableCitizen - September 11, 2008

Please cite the differences of a socialist tax system vs a capitalist tax system vs a democratic tax system as used in other countries around the world. I am likely stating this all wrong from ignorance. Sorry.

2. federalist - September 11, 2008

In principle a socialist tax system simply “takes from each according to his means, gives to each according to his need.”

A “capitalist” tax system imposes taxes only to preserve the efficiency of free markets. “Fair” capitalist taxes might include use taxes (i.e., fees that support market regulation or the protection of contracts and property rights) as well as “externality” taxes imposed to avoid tragedies of commons.

Democratic tax systems in practice mix elements of both.

3. ReasonableCitizen - September 11, 2008

Thanks for the help.

4. Ron Howell - October 7, 2008

I do not believe America is ready for a Socialist to be elected dog catcher … let alone the highest office in the land.

What bothers me most is the lack of honesty that Mr. Obama demonstrates.

Dishonesty is not a trait we need in a leader.

Mr. Obama has demonstrated he will say and do anything to get votes.

I will not vote for someone like that.

5. whiskeyromeo51 - October 8, 2008

Why parse the terms? Communism-Socialism-Marxism-Fascism-Nazism are all destination points on the left of the continuim. They all promote the ‘central planning’ and ‘social engineering’ power of the State polit bureau. Their tennents are based in State control of all aspects of society including education, economics, health, trade, etc. They only differ slightly be how much control and how fast they intend to implement that control. Barak Hussein Obama is a statist. He believes in the power & principle of a small, mostly appointed, group of central government officials using their power to create a society that represents their idealogical conceptual view. Regardless of the name you call it, the intention is to use the force of government to control certain segments of the population applying penalties to some and rewards to others in effort to design a preferred social structure.

Obama’s mentors are Chomsky, Ayeres, Alinsky, Wright, Farrakhan, et al. These people all despise America, capitalism, the republic as a form of governance, and in some cases the ‘white race’. Unfortunately American History has not been taught in the schools since the 1960’s but if it were, you would understand that an international socialist/communist consortium has sought to destroy the West since 1917. Intially it was thought that the ‘thrill’ of revolution could be transplanted to the US after WWI. The country waqs more interested in forgetting the horrors of war; hence the ‘roaring 20’s’. The Great Depression was the next opportunity and communists made great strides to influence American politics. But the economic fervor of WWII short circuited the effort and patriotism for the US grew. During WWII, this movement was elated at FDR’s love affair with Stahlin. The used this time to place many passive & active communists into the government. (As it turns out, Joe Mccarthy was right as proven by the release of KGB documents in 1991). The subsequent ‘cold war’ made communism once again replusive so a new plan had to be developed. Never again could communism & socialism be construed as positve. A new lexicon was developed to describe this a progressive, liberal, free-thinking. A new strategy was to seek a haven of influence in academia where ‘new ideas’ were better tolerated and opportunities to train the future teachers of America existed. Simultaneously and effort was launched to obtain positins within the media, starting with the ‘arts’ in Hollywood movies and into the Unions. Influencing the educational process and the primary means of communication gave rise to a slow acceptance of these ‘new & bold principles’ without having to painfully point out that those tennents have failed everywhere. There were some problems in the 50’s however. Some of these new thinkers had a different ‘sexual orientation’ and society was very resitant to this. Actual instructions were given to many to enter the Catholic Church priesthood where a man would not be questioned for remaining unmarried. Forty years later we see the result of that infaltration.(Remember the baby boom….everyone getting married and having kids….very difficult time for those not wishing to participate in America’s recovery). Starting to see the pattern here? Education, Media, Law, Politics, Judiciary as means to restructure a society. They have not controlled the last three, yet. But Obama will help them get there too. Why is it that our most liberal voices come from universities,the teachers unions and Hollywood? And this movement is international in scope and beyong convential borders. Just look a George Soros. A ‘citizen of the world’ focused almost exclusively on destroying the currency of Western Democracies. Why would he want to do that? Because he openly hates the captalist model that brought him his great wealth and has vowed to destroy it. BTW – he is the main money man behind Obama. Next edition – where did Obama come from? Wake Up.

6. disgusted with mccain - October 20, 2008

I can’t believe the hate that whiskey romeo used in his post. I was a republican but after all the hate McCain and Palin have instilled in this campaign i am voting for Obama. I will never vote republican again. This is America, Senetor Obama is an American citizen and we have Yahoos like whiskeyromeo accusng the man of being a communist. What era are we living in? What rock has this idiot crawled out of?

Bonnie Wheeler - September 1, 2010

Disgusted – I doubt that you have ever voted Republican in your entire life. It is now Sept 2010. I’m just wondering how that changey thing is working for you?

How do you like having a president that has a ‘lack of knowledge’ that equals no other, not to mention the dishonesty such as the vote buying, and deals made behind closed doors.

7. Concerned - October 20, 2008

Alaska is one of the most socialist states in the union. Do you know each citzen gets over $1500 directly from the oil companies every year? If you produce oil in Alaska and sell it in Colorado guess what.. your paying for that rebate. Socialism. Thats pure Socialism. I was a Republican until my friend in Alaska told me that. Give me a tax plan McCain not more McSame.

Red is the color of Embarassment.. Fox is now blue!

8. Concerned Citizen X - October 20, 2008

Disgusted, you are obviously a pro-Obama plant. There was no “hate” as you put it in whiskeyromeo51’s post at all. Not the slightest bit. What was there was a WHOLE LOT of direct truth-telling about the realities behind Barack Obama and his allies. Whiskeyromeo is absolutely correct. Obamas very real and very deep connections with Bill Ayers (a marxist) and other friends of Bill Ayers (like Mike Klonsky) and former members of the SDS, his background as a Saul Alinsky organizer (completely socialist despite his avowals to the contrary which were made while communist foe J. Edgar Hoover was still alive), his long and deep ties with ACORN, which promotes a socialist agenda, and his own membership in the socialist New Partty are all enough to prove Obama is a socialist. When he let the cat out of the bag with his “spread the wealth” comment to Joe the Plumber, he just revealed in an unguarded moment what all his connections had already demonstrated: Barack Obama is MOST DEFINITELY a socialist and far more likely shares sympathies with very radical state-control oriented marxism, as evidenced by his very dramatic attempts to use ruthless tactics (lawsuits, threats of criminal prosecution, phony accusations of racism) to silence his critics.

9. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

The GOP depends on citizens to have no sense of history or fiscal policy to fall for such ridiculous rhetoric. Look at the tax rate history from about 1920 to 1980. You’ll find that the wealthiest tax tier paid from 75-90% taxes. Not to mention that before the wealthy received a huge tax cut and we began spending irresponsibly our national debt was fairly under control. Once Reagan cut taxes from 75% to ~35%, amazingly enough, our national debt grew astronomically. ‘Trickle-down’ (supply-side) economics does increase the GDP significantly, but what good is it when only the top tier of our society reaps the benefits and the bottom and middle decline in wealth, thus decreasing a sizable tax base and forcing the government to once again tax the wealthy at high rates? This line of thought has led us into our nation’s second Gilded Age (look it up). The disparity in wealth is nearly identical. Prior to trickle-down the top and bottom tiers of society increased and decreased fairly close together. Once this economic method was implemented along with less regulation and increased access of special interests to our elected representatives, the top tiers of society climbed while the middle and the bottom flattened or declined. Take into account the increased spending required to become socially mobile (higher education), and you’ll find the poor and middle-class are indebted to the wealthy just to obtain the tools to better their lives. You tell me, where is the American Dream in that?

Obama wanting to return to a more fiscally responsible and historically based tax plan is not socialism, it’s how American used to be fiscally responsible. Gov. Palin, John McCain, and those that would fall for their ridiculous nonsense, do your homework before you go around using words like socialism. Such pitiful rhetoric has no place in our country or our lives. Each time a Neo-Con Republican runs for office our country becomes more divided due to their unconstitutional social agenda, their hateful and fear-inducing oratory. This used to not be so. They could win on merit alone. But after their failed policies began to come to light they had to adapt the tactics listed above.

It’s time we remember that we’re all in this together. We must leave the hate and narrow-mindedness behind to ensure a bright, hopeful future for ourselves and our children.

STEPHEN BARRETT - August 19, 2011

Wow what a difference those 2 plus years have made huh my friend. Fiscal responsible, Obama? $4.6 BILLION A DAY EACH AND EVERY DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

10. Concerned Citizen X - October 20, 2008

In my previous post, it should be clear that I am saying that SAUL ALINKSY denied being a socialist because he was active while J. Edgar Hoover was still alive and the last gasp of McCarthyism was still in evidence. The wording makes it sound as though I am saying Obama was around back then which is not my intent. Obama’s community organizing background was as follows (at least the part we know about): He worked as a community organizer for the Alinksy-based Developing Communities Project, he TAUGHT organizing for The Gamaliel Foundation, which openly states they follow Alinksy’s principles on its website, and his allies ACORN and the union SEIU (which ACORN refers to as it’s labor wing) all follow the Alinsky model. Alinsky’s whole paradigm was to teach groups to identify what makes them a group apart from their opponent, demonize their opponent, and then to “rub raw the discontents” in the group about the opponent, while using radical, “in-your-face” tactics (like ACORN bursting into bank offices, or Obama telling his supporters to “get in people’s faces”). Alinsky called for class warfare and openly advocated that the Machiavellian idea that the ends justify the means in the quest for power. His “us vs. them” class warfare paradigm about getting power and money from those that have them was pure socialism despite his denials. And his methods were completely unethical and radical, so much so that when Hillary Clinton interviewed him back in 1969, she thought he was too radical for her (in the 60’s no less!). Yet his organizing model went on to become the basis for all the “community organizing” that Obama and his allies practice. Two things should be clearly understood about Alinsky-style community organizing: it is completely unethical and completely socialst. And this is Obama’s background. And on top of that, he’s buddies with marxist Bill Ayes and other former members of Ayers’ marxist SDS and marxist Weather Underground. And on top of that, Obama was actually a member of the New Party (a socialist party) in Chicago. It’s really protesting too much to say Obama isn’t a socialist, when all the evidence clearly says that he is.

11. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

Those that are claiming that Obama has some ridiculous ulterior motives are kidding yourselves. There is absolutely no evidence to what you claim. The only way you could possibly believe what you say is if you are willing to accept the rumor-mill, unreliable sources that spew forth such buffoonery. Sarah Palin and John McCain planted the seed on a loose connection and their supporters have lapped up their absurd ramblings. Go check objective and unbiased websites like factcheck.org & politifact.com. Then think about the fact that the majority of America is aware of the garbage you’re talking about and they’ve been able to see how ridiculous it is. Perhaps you should reevaluate your reality.

12. Concerned Citizen X - October 20, 2008

What Brant is saying is completely avoidant. He completely ignores the fact that Obama is openly advocating a “spread the wealth” plan of a kind we have never seen in America except in places like Huey Long’s Louisiana, which Long ran as a left-wing dictatorship. Further, he avoids the fact that we are not talking about the “wealthiest tax tier” here. We are talking about people who make anything over $250,000 a year. These people comprise the vast number of small business owners, who provide for America enormous resources in terms of jobs and tax revenue. Obama’s plan is like killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Once you tax these small business owners to the point where, like “Joe the Plumber” they feel no incentive to even BECOME small business owners, then a vast swath of America’s wealth and potential for growth will be destroyed. These are the people Obama is attacking, not the upper-tier people like corporate CEOs who Obama supporters love to demonize. Without small businesses, America’s economy would be but a shadow of what it is even now after the financial meltdown. And on top of that Obama wants to kill incentive even more by handing out other people’s tax money to people who don’t even pay taxes. Some assistance is sensible and even necessary, but the level to which Obama will take this by destroying the very wealth needed to fund his own handouts will creat a drab greyness in our economy from which it will take decades to recover.

13. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

More food for thought. When the wealthy pay the most taxes, which has always been the case since we introduced a marginal tax rate in the early 20th century, they pay the most taxes. Some of those taxes go to infrastructure like highways. The wealthy pay more for the highways yet anyone can drive on them, including those that pay less or no income taxes. But how can this be? Isn’t this socialistic? The wealthy providing more capital so that those that provide less get exactly the same product? Isn’t that a redistribution of wealth to the poor? Sounds like a mixed-capitalist society, as our country has always been. If you believe we’ve ever, in the history of the US, had a pure capitalist society, you are wrong. Obama is simply returning to a more balanced system like we had prior to Reaganomics. We desperately need consumer-side economics to balance out the effects of the last 30 years. Some economists may agree, others will not. Yet anyone with a sense of history, fiscal policy, and objective thought will admit that Obama’s plan is no different in essence than policy our country has executed for ages. Are we honestly bringing the age of the Red Scare back into our lives? I thought we learned our lesson last century…

14. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

According to reliable independent studies that I’ve seen, the majority of small-businesses will not be affected by the tax increase above $250,000. What you fail to realize is that his tax cut is how he intends to help resolve our economic troubles. John McCain’s tax plan is to reduce taxes for the wealthy so that they can invest?! Seriously? Who in their right mind is going to invest with a volatile stock market and uncertain consumer demand? During recessions the wealthy generally become very conservative with their money. Now Obama’s tax plan would provide the lower tiers of society a tax cut (I will address this terminology below), who have nearly a 100% marginal propensity to consume. So when they spend this money, they create demand for goods, which create jobs for workers, which provides profit to companies, which enables them to expand (invest). This, giving our current situation, is a much more rapid method of stimulating a faltering economy. Furthermore, you may think of it as a stimulus package, but instead of borrowing to implement it we’re paying for it immediately.

Regarding the redistributing the wealth to those that “don’t pay taxes,” there you are wrong. Everyone who works pays taxes. Granted, the bottom earners do not pay income tax, as those deductions are refunded. They do pay social security taxes and other payroll taxes in addition to taxes such as the gas tax which are not refunded. It is likely true that someone that makes say, $20k a year will not pay the ~$1250 or whatever Obama is wanting to credit them, but it should be well over half of that, if not fairly close. Given all this information, is it starting to come together now? The world isn’t coming to an end and we’re no more socialistic than we were during the better part of the 20th century?

15. disgusted with mccain - October 20, 2008

concerned citizen x suggesting that I’m a pro obama plant is absurd. this is how paranoid and suspicious people have become. I’m just an average American Very concerned with the direction this country is going and basically it’s going straight down the toilet!!!!

16. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

We’ll get through this, this country has been through worse. I do not believe that the Neo-Con Republican Party will survive in its current state much longer, though. It’s having to reach further to the right to hold its base, and their in lies a social agenda that most Americans can not identify with. The core of the Republican party used to be socially neutral and fiscally conservative. Since WWII years headed by Republican presidents have been dominated by poor fiscal policy. To the tune of our national debt growing by leaps and bounds when compared to the Democrats, particularly since the 1980s. It is hard to believe but the data is all there. At least the Democrats have the nerve to tax more when they spend more, where as the Republicans tax less yet spend only slightly less. Neither party has been terribly responsible, but I’ll go with the lesser of the two evils. When the Republicans stop imposing a social agenda which limits the rights of all to cater to the beliefs of a few and they return to the fiscally conservative roots, I will once again return to the fold. I can only hope that is soon.

17. maverick - October 20, 2008

Let’s use our brain when we vote, not our emotions! Let’s
not vote for a candidate just because he’s a good speaker and
a celebrity, or looks good in what he wears, or youthful!
Let’s not be too shallow in picking a candidate based on
external appearances!!!

Who should we vote for to be our next U.S. Commander-in
-Chief? What are we looking for in a candidate to qualify as
our next U.S. President?

In my case, I’ll base my vote on the following criteria:

1. Character

Public estimation of someone; reputation
Moral or ethical strength
Competency and dependability
Status or role; capacity
Attributes, traits, or abilities

On character, I’ll vote for McCain/Palin! Why? Both have
the reputation of being REAL mavericks as shown in their
job performances and experiences!

2. Experience

Personal background
Life history
Active participation in events or activities, leading to the
accumulation of knowledge or skill
An event or a series of events participated in or lived

On experience, I’ll vote for McCain/Palin because both of
them have good personal backgrounds and their past
activities in life made them more respectable citizens of our
country. John McCain is a hero and has shown
commendable services for our country! Sarah Palin has done
great achievements for her people as a mayor, then, governor
of Alaska! Her executive duties as a mayor and governor qualify her to become the US Vice-President and, just like John McCain, she’s READY to lead!

3. Belief

Mental acceptance of and conviction
position assumed preparatory to action
General disposition and tendencies

I’ll vote for McCain/Palin because both of them have the
conviction to serve our country first: that means they’ll
make the necessary changes in Washington for the good of
the entire nation! Also, both of them don’t associate
themselves with extremists, such as, terrorists, racists, and
fraudulent organizations like ACORN! They didn’t spend 20+ years
listening to an extremist that condemns the U.S. as a country
and ALL white Americans! John McCain & Sarah Palin
salute the U.S. flag and show respect to what our country
stands for: Democracy, NOT SOCIALISM! They’re
against what Barack Hussein Obama said, “I think when you
spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody!” because
it’s a SOCIALIST tax plan! Also, they respect you and me
when we ask questions regarding issues that we’re concerned
about … without being harassed, ridiculed, and misled
because they have a consistent reputation of being
HONEST to the American people! They see to it that our FREEDOM OF SPEECH isn’t violated…and that, we can exercise it FULLY without being attacked!!!

Meaning of SOCIALISM:

so·cial·ism (s½“sh…-l¹z”…m) n. 1.a. A social system in
which the means of producing and distributing goods are
owned collectively and political power is exercised by the
whole community. b. The theory or practice of those who
support such a social system. 2. The building of the material
base for communism under the dictatorship of the
proletariat in Marxist-Leninist theory.




18. disgusted with mccain - October 20, 2008

I believe Sarah Palin was found to have abused her power as govenor. I believe the word was unethical!! John McCain threw away his first wife for the new and improved Cindy who was just rich enough to help further his political career. I find nothing honorable there.

19. maverick - October 20, 2008



Obama Camp Scraps National Anthem
Saturday, October 18, 2008 9:06 AM
By: Phil Brennan

Obama does not stand for and that’s ‘America.’ John McCain
is ‘proud’ to be an ‘American’ and has shown it in many
ways while Obama refuses to say the Pledge and have our
nation’s anthem sung at his rallies.”


Obama’s Secret Campaign Cash: Has $63 Million Flowed
from Foreign Sources?
Sunday, October 19, 2008 6:28 PM
By: Kenneth R. Timmerman

Obama’s refusal to disclose donors who had contributed less
to $200 to his campaign


Archbishop Criticizes Obama, Catholic Allies
Saturday, October 18, 2008 9:30 PM


20. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

Maverick, your perception of the character of the Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates is far from accurate. You need to get off the e-mail, rumor mill, and propaganda diet the Republican Party and friends are feeding you.

Isn’t it interesting that the American media, nay, the entire world’s media is in cahoots in generating this vast conspiracy against the Republicans in America and assisting Obama in the destruction of our nation (as you likely believe)? You do realize that this is the only way you can excuse the belief in all that mess you are spouting? Otherwise how does none of it not get the attention of America’s and the world’s media? Even Fox News, with an obvious conservative agenda, never goes so far to actually site actual evidence or information as factually correct. You know why? Because it doesn’t exist… They simply allude to broad innuendoes or have some hack come on the air and spout his nonsense conspiracy theories, alleviating the organization from any direct wrong-doing. Yet in reality they are complicit to the garbage they allow on the air, so they do help to advance these ridiculous ideas.

McCain has made mistakes in his life as well, some fairly big and to some people unforgivable. Yet I can see that overall he’s a good man at heart, but has allowed his party and his desire to obtain the presidency overtake his better judgment and misguide his moral compass. That’s all I have to say to that. You have to take it upon yourself to find the truth, but you also have to want to find it.

21. maverick - October 20, 2008






22. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

Fear and anger are powerful tools, because they cloud rational thought and reason. Remember that fear and anger were the primary motivators in the fascist’s rise to power in Hitler’s Germany and Mussolini’s Italy. I, by no stretch of the imagination, correlate McCain/Palin to that era of history, but it is noteworthy how they began to artfully wield those tools once they began to fall behind in the race. You do not have to be afraid, friend. The truth will set you free.

23. maverick - October 20, 2008




24. maverick - October 20, 2008







25. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

You obviously haven’t looked into the matter objectively or in-depth. If you had, you would find blame on both sides. You need to trace it all the way back. Let me help you get started…


No offense, but there is no point discussing these issues with you further. You continue to address topics that you apparently don’t care to objectively research nor do you seem to implement critical or rational thought to the information you’ve been exposed to. I am willing to simply say you and I will not meet with any sort of agreement, and I am willing to accept that. Good luck to you.

26. Brant, TX - October 20, 2008

The board that investigated Palin consisted of 8 Republicans, 4 Democrats, and a Democratic investigator. They reached a unanimous decision regarding her ethics violation. The investigation began one month prior to her becoming the Vice-Presidential candidate, and at the time she was fully cooperative. It was only after she became McCain’s running mate did she hire a lawyer, refuse to cooperate, and politicize the matter citing that it was a politically charged investigation. Again, you do not appear to be familiar with the facts. Good luck, and I’m seriously done this time!

27. maverick - October 20, 2008




28. maverick - October 20, 2008



29. maverick - October 20, 2008


Fear and anger are powerful tools, because they cloud rational thought and reason. Remember that fear and anger were the primary motivators in the fascist’s rise to power in Hitler’s Germany and Mussolini’s Italy. I, by no stretch of the imagination, correlate BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA & JOE BIDEN to that era of history, but it is noteworthy how they began to artfully wield those tools once they began to SEE THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE QUESTIONING BARACK’S ASSOCIATION TO TERRORISTS, EXTREMISTS, RACISTS, BIGOTS, ANTI-SEMITES, AND FRAUDULENT ORGANIZATIONS. You do not have to be afraid, friend. The truth will set you free!


30. klm - October 20, 2008

For the people who don’t make enough money to pay income tax, according to McCain’s proposed health plant, he government would pay them $5,000. So, how is Obama’s plan socialism but McCain’s isn’t?

31. maverick - October 20, 2008











32. you wish - October 20, 2008

Maverick – typing in UC is a sign of just how weak you think your arguments are, “SHOUTING” will not help.

And oh yes that list of “socialist” failed governments is long, i.e. France, best health care system in the world according to WHO, with 100% coverage, and of course all those “nasty” socialist countries like Sweden and Norway with the highest standard of living.

But you are of course kidding yourself, for we are talking about good old “capitalist” America where Billions of Dollars from the ordinary tax payers, (often paid appalling low wages, with no health care or pensions) is being given to the “poor” capitalists on Wall Street. That is quite a transfer of wealth!

Additionally we could talk about the huge subsidies given to American farmers, the protection of inefficient American steel mills through import restrictions etc, etc. Sounds like socialism to me and all this under a Republican administration.

Welcome to socialist America

33. American - October 20, 2008

Bottom line to all of this is simple: Obamas past and present allies are as racist and socialist as it gets. Obama and all of his disgusting supporters (Wright, Ayers, Farrakahn,etc.) are up to no good with OUR country! Bottom line on socialist ideals: It is not anyones responsibility to pay for anothers way through life. In Amarica we are free because we have that freedom to stand on our own 2 feet and take responsibilty for our on actions such as working hard and taking care of our OWN family and making our OWN money and paying our OWN way through life, NOT having a socialist government taking large sums of money from others to pay the way through life for people that are to lazy to work, to lazy to go to collage, to lazy to finish highschool, to lazy to serve their country, or any thing else. It is not my neighbors responsibilty to raise my kids and feed my family, that is my responsibilty. Picture this: If you were to give health care to EVERYONE no matter what, think about who is everyone,(drug addicts, drug dealers, illegal aliens, alcoholics that won’t work, winos off the street, lazy people that just refuse to work because they know the government will hand them out something of a check, etc) ,how does the picture look so far??? WAKE up people!!! OBAMA is a smooth talking racist, socialist, fake, fooling all of whom that believes the crap that comes out of his mouth. You can’t even begin to find such dirt on McCain or Pallin, because it doesn’t exist!! McCain has always bled RED, WHITE and BLUE and always will. OBAMA has always done right the contrary, his friends have always been people that are anti-US, anti White, and rub shoulders with terrorist, both domestic and foriegn. As for Colin Powell, he has lost all common descencies backing a piece of trash like OBAMA. Do the only morally right thing and vote McCain/Palin.

34. maverick - October 20, 2008





35. Maverick 2 - October 20, 2008

God Bless the USA

Obama and Biden in 2008.

Obama is clearly the better candidate.

36. maverick - October 20, 2008






37. Steve - October 20, 2008

The taxing of citizens and distributing the money to others is what you have right now!!! If that is socialism, you already have it. My answer is no its not socialism. The Republicans are wrong as usual.

38. maverick - October 20, 2008







39. Shay - October 20, 2008

Im 26 years old and this is the first time in my life that i have actually paid attention to politics. I, for one, have never seen so much political racism in my life! What wrong with you people? Arent we all part of this grand country we call AMERICA!

40. Kathy - October 20, 2008

A rose is a rose by any other name. Obama is, beyond doubt, a socialist reformer who would change our country for the worse.

41. anotherview - October 20, 2008

Obama, with the exception of his recent slip, has not clearly defined his views and beliefs so we are left to looking at who has been important in his life, including his parents, who both had a very liberal philosophy.

What all the associations and friendships Obama has had do, is paint a picture of the values and beliefs that Obama may hold, since he won’t tell us himself. These are long term friendships with individuals holding radical views, some who have been convicted of illegal deeds, and who have supported Obama financially. How can Obama simply dismiss these people as being insignificant to his life and to who he is today.

Based on the above and this article, Obama clearly has view that “social justice” is needed for America. The next step is simple. We decide if we agree with Obama or not. However, a look at our Constitution will make it clear the vision our forefathers held for this great nation called, The United States of America.

42. American - October 20, 2008

Dear Shayand Maverick #2, Have you ever been to Germany? If not, I have. It is a fine example of what Obama wants to bring to America. The Germans pay right around 60 to 70% taxes, then the government distributes the money on a national health care system, they can’t retire until they are like 75 years old, or to old for it to matter anyway, their small and large businesses are taxed additionally on any and all Land, Buildings, Equipment, etc, every year, which in return, they can’t ever expand their small businesses because they have nothing left to invest for 1, #2 if they expand their business they have to pay all that additional tax on the property, building, equipment etc, so it makes no sense to ever get any bigger because you are only penalized for it and you are spinning your wheels and getting no where, while the government is using all your money the way they want, not the way you want. In addition to businesses, they also go to each house and tax any and all personal property inside the house, in which makes it not personal property but, government property,and make them pay taxes on that. This is true, we use to go around the German neighborhoods and pick up the good furniture and appliances and use them for ourselves and bring it back to the states with us, being is the taxes don’t apply to the Americans living there. Germany is just a suger coated comunist/socialist country to this day, I could go on explaining many more off the wall crap they have to live under, but, I think you get the picture. IS THAT THE USA YOU WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????? If so, by a one way ticket to Germany and abandon your US citizenship and live there, but leave us Americans alone!

43. Ron - October 20, 2008

Funny how McCain’s supporters consider their lies as facts…

When saying Ayers was one of Obama’s Mentors, I’m astonished, being in the same place at the same time doesn’t mean you’re sharing the person’s views, the McCain campaign knows that very well, the thing is they have nothing else to say to the American People.

Now, Hear Hear, they say Socialism, do you folks know what is Socialism? Do you know what is the difference between Socialism and Marxism? it seems you don’t.

Obama is a centrist, with centrist policies, now you like it or not, that’s the point of elections, choosing the policies you like and think that the nation needs. All I know is that a change must come, ENOUGH of the Ultra Capitalism that drove us to this situation, the government must intervene, regulate the markets, and redefine how wealth is distributed.

So what McCain (and his supporters) think is: It is only Fair that 2 percent of the population gets the majority of the wealth, it’s also fair for these folks to get more tax cuts, BUT IT IS NOT FAIR THAT THE REST OF AMERICANS GET A TAX CUT??????? OR A TAX CREDIT IN SOME CASES. Don’t forget my friends (urghh I’m also getting the “my friend” disease now) that the wealth is created by workers, work is the real wealth, so it’s time middle class America gets a fair share out of it.

Oh yeah, just another thing, the tax policies, whether they are capitalist or not, aim at redistributing wealth, in other words “spread the wealth around” yes. and there’s nothing socialist in that. The difference between McCain and Obama, and again between Republicans and Democrats is: How and to whom distribute the wealth. Republicans’ answer is “to the rich first”, Democrats answer is “to the working force first”, now you choose.

You can call it Socialism if you want, I’ll call it simple logic FAIRNESS.

Keep in mind also that America always needed a Democrat to clean the mess that the previous Republican made, but it seems we don’t learn the lesson do we!!!

44. ldh - October 20, 2008

The only active Socialist in this Country has been the Republician Party . The banks and credit markets are Socialized, Capitalism has been destroyed as the government steps in to cut the risk of loss to the wealthly and put it on the backs of the working class. Its simple, the Republicians have opened the box and have let the genie of Socialism out and it will never be reboxed. Thank you Bush, thank you wealthly investors who only want Capitalism to work in one direction which is wealth accumulation without risk of a downside and loss. America is the most unfree and regulated country in America, I say quit reliving the elementary school indoctrination of what a great place we have and open your eyes, or better yet travel a bit and you will see what a myth the “AMERICAN FREEDOM is”. America is a third world debtor country that is now an impotent bit player in the world stage, except we are the fools who spend our treasury and lose our best trying to police the world while others just look at us at the fools of the world.

45. Captialist - October 20, 2008

Barack is a SOCIALIST!!!! Anyone, who uses terms such as redistribution of wealth is a SOCIALIST! The state decides what people get not individuals. This day has been coming and if Barack Obama is elected and the Houses of Congress are in the control of Pelosi and Reid, we will get full blown socialism.

Today, was unique as I am in Japan on a work assignment and while walking to lunch I fell and fractured my foot. I spent 4 HOURS for a doctor to tell me my foot was fractured. During the waiting and form filling out, I noticed that at the hospital that there was a lot of waiting and Doctors spend little time with patients. I found out that the average person has no choice of Doctor. You go to the hospital unless you are wealthy and can afford a private doctor. While the cost in cash was about $125.00 in total, I would have gladly paid more to speak to a doctor longer than 3 minutes. In the USA, I spend more time with my doctor and I HAVE CHOICES!

Now, the cost was low because they do not have the blood sucking lawyers like John Edwards raising malpractice rates.

So, I want to see Tort Reform of an abused system and I want choices, not dictates from the Federal Government as to what health care I received.

Barack Obama is a socialist and scares the hell out of me!

46. American - October 20, 2008

Hello Ron. There would be no jobs without rich people, Dumbass! And if that rich man or women gets richer just because he or she is smart enough to keep coming up with good ideas and creating more jobs, well that is their money, not YOURS, and you don’t have any right to that money, because you didn’t make the money yourself!! If you want a hand out, go get in the welfare and food stamp line and wait for Obama to give you your little handout!!! Or call Jimmy Carter, maybe he will come build you a fraken house for FREE!!!!!!!!! You idiot!!!

47. Mike W. - October 20, 2008

disgusted with mccain, Obama IS a communist. Or at a minimum, his proposed policies are. Income redistribution is WRONG. It’s THEFT. It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul.

You have no right to my money, especially to simply up and give it to someone else.

Anyone who votes for Obama Bin Biden is a THIEF and a traitor to the American way.

48. disgusted with mccain - October 20, 2008

First Obama was an elitest, then he was a terrorist now he is a socialist. I can’t wait
for the next title the republicans will give him. Every week it’s something different . Oh wait I forgot the best one, racist How can a person who is biracial , raised by his white grandparents be racist when his own children are half white. Here’s the reasoning behind all of this, He’s different and lord knows here in the good old USA we don’t like or trust people who are different!

49. Ron - October 20, 2008

Well mister American, glad to have someone who considers himself more intelligent then the others.

There would be no jobs without rich people, that might be true…

But there would be no rich people if there weren’t others to work for them!!! So how do you deal with this Mister “I’m smarter then the others”.

Anyway, what I’m saying is that the rich people or let’s say companies, will always want lower salaries for their employees, to reduce the costs, or why do you think all of them are delocalising!!!!!
I’ve a master in Finance dear Friend, so I think I know what I’m talking about, even if you think otherwise.

So the government must have the companies, and the markets under control.

I am not telling you that I want to be as rich as these guys, I agree they had ideas and everything that made them that rich, but human sense tells me that they’re rich enough to pay more taxes!!!!!!!!
and the others aren’t rich enough to pay more.

and btw, I might get no tax cuts under Obama, or I might even get a tax increase, but I don’t mind that as long as it’s used properly.

50. American - October 20, 2008

Hello Ron, obviously you’re an F student anyway. As for health care. It is each responsible adults responsibility to work hard and pay for their own insurance and whatever else they want in life. In your little perfect world you want to raise and train a society that depends on the government to take care of it no matter how lazy or irresponsible they might be. I don’t agree with bailing these Mortgage companies out of a free lending hole they put THEMSELVES in, but giving away another mans money is unamerican. We defeated Britian over 200 years ago, to gain our right to make our own money and spend it as we damn well please. I am a middle class citizen, but, I have enough sense to know you can’t expect to have handouts to keep you alive and well. Americans need to be more responsible and raise their children to do the same.

51. Carl R. Brucker - October 20, 2008

I could not have explained it better than you! However, you failed to explain how the NAZI-SOCIALISTS took over the german government, news media outlets(newspapers, radio etc.) prior Hitler gaining power. The breeding of social liberalism has already taken over in this country, look how the medial has promoted OBAMA, and disected McCain. The only part left out is the violence and antisemitism. People need to visit the “Spy Museum” and “Holocaust” museum in Washington D.C.. It is uncanny how that period of time is paralleling OBAMA in every political way!

52. Mike W. - October 20, 2008

Let’s also add that Obama is a LIAR. He states that he supports the Second Amendment – yet has voted against gun rights EVERY SINGLE TIME EXCEPT ONE in his ENTIRE career in both Illinois and the US Senate. Look up his voting record. It’s a matter of public record.

However, Obama Bin Biden threatens to sue radio stations that run radio ads counter to his ridiculous “Ray Shockey Gun Owners of America” ad (Gun Owners of America is really a gun control group), regardless of the fact that the NRA can and DOES provide sources for each of their arguments. These sources are typically either direct quotes from Obama or records of his voting on gun related issues. Yet Obama threatens to sue any radio station that runs the NRA ads.

Why is this further proof of socialism? Socialists want to increase an individuals dependancy on government. People like Obama want the population to be totally dependant on the government for everything – including their personal protection. It enhances their control, and control is what it’s all about. The Seocnd Amendment has NOTHING to do with duck hunting. It was crafted to allow for the people to have some power to oppose a government that no longer represented their interests. Read the writings of the founding Fathers if you dare. This very concept, that the government should fear the people and not the other way around TERRIFIES Socialists like Obama.

Obama wants you to trade your freedoms and liberties for “free” health care and “tax credits.” Oh, and you can also plan for a life of “universal voluntary service” instead of working for the corporate “man”. Free enterprise and capitalism were the driving forces behing the last 200+ years of this country. The government played very little role, yet Obama wants it to get more involved.

And don’t give me the crap about it only being “because he’s black.” I’d vote for Alan Keyes in a HEARTBEAT (a TRUE conservative who just HAPPENS to be black, and a FAR better conservative candidate than McCain any day of the week.) I’m not voting for Obama just to prove to white elitists and black activists that I’m not racist.

53. MITCH - October 20, 2008

Neither canidate is the best but there are to many discrepancies and true facts for obama to be good for this country

54. Babs - October 20, 2008

For those insulted by the word “socialism” and “communism”, read the blog above with the definitions. These words are not meant as insults but are political ideaologies. What concerns me is not ONLY the wealth distribution issue, but listen carefully to what Obama said in the last debate. He has indicated that at least some health care should be provided by the government. He says that the system of education (K-12) in this country is bad and needs to have federal input (this is hidden by the word “reform”). He said that “everyone who wants to go to college should be able to”. He did say these folks could work, but if you have spent time at a university the on-campus jobs are already given to those students in need. And state universities here in Georgia have had massive budget issues the last decade. So I am hearing that K-12 education, health insurance, and colleges will have federal government influences/control – all of which will cost taxpayer money! (Don’t forget that he will be paying for alternative energy research as well.) This is too much government interference. I think the Government is too big already. Add to that his stance on abortion (which will be funded by us) and his poor moral character (obvious evasion and lying) and he is not anyone I want in the White House.

55. Ron - October 20, 2008

Again, see the example of Nordic countries like Sweden!!!!!!

Do you think that they’re less free then us??

Do you think that somehow their democracy is weaker??

I don’t think so. These countries are the biggest democracies in the world, and you know what?? by McCain/Palin standards they are SOCIALIST lol.

56. American - October 20, 2008

Hey Ron, Taxes just need to be kept under control. Taxes are high enough already, and if you tax the companies to much they plainly don’t have enough money to put into more investments. Do they have the upper hand? YES. But, you can’t live without them either. There are plenty other ways to get this country on its feet without raising TAXES. This is just a cheap Robin Hodd tactic to try and get poor peoples votes, pure and simple. Have a nice day.

57. CJB in CA - October 20, 2008

“Spread the Wealth” NObama: #1 Radical Leftist US Senator, Socialistic Welfare State, Cut and Run DEFEAT in IRAQ, continuing LIES about NObama’s PAST / PRESENT with Radical Leftists Ayers, ACORN, Wright, Soros, Chicago Daley Political Machine et al

Hillary Democrat for McCAIN / PALIN ‘08 – AMERICA FIRST – TRUE REFORMERS !!

58. An american abroad - October 20, 2008

Dear American – If indeed you were ever in Germany you must of spend most of the time in a beer hall/tent. Nothing which you say is the truth. I know I live there. Taxes although high run about 25% to 30% average (range 15 to 53%). The government does pay into the national health service but so does every employer and employee. Normal retirement age starts at 65 and increases to 67. I retired at 60 of course at a price of -18% off my normal retirement pay. The system is not that much different than US Social Security. The taxes for businesses are based on the value and profit of the business. The things you mentioned contribute to the value of the business and so raise the tax but like in the states these things are also deductible, so they profit by expanding so they actually pay less taxes. The government does not go to each house and tax any and all personal property inside the house! Your reference to picking up used furniture around the neighborhoods is true but your reason why they do that is ridiculous. The people buy new furniture and put the old out on the street to be collected by the garbage collectors. This custom is changing now because they are changing from a monthly/quarterly pickup to a call-up pickup. Another fallacy is that Americans living in Germany don’t have to pay taxes. Any American who lives and works in Germany has not only to pay high german taxes but also has to report his earnings to the IRS and possibly has to pay US taxes too! Before you start giving out one way tickets to Germany, get your facts straight. Stay on american beer, you don’t seem to be able to handle german beer.

59. Quintus Arius - October 20, 2008

There is nothing in Obama’s background that indicates he is for free enterprise, free trade, entrepreneurship, capitalism, and individual rights.

On the contrary his background and his own statements speak clearly to Marxism. Now he moves away from that a bit to seek the votes of the uniformed. But where will his instincts take him should he become president?

His ‘Robin Hood’ approach may sound good to people who want something for nothing, but remember Robin Hood was thief.

60. Brandy - October 20, 2008

Just to make sure that I understand this correctly, I’ll lay out Obama’s tax policy. He wants more middle class families to experience the “American Dream,” so to ensure that this happens, he wants to give a tax cut to anyone who makes below $250,000 (he still has yet to explain if this is net, gross, or even if it includes inventory) a year and a tax increase (another quick side bar-the last president to raise taxes during a time of economic crisis was Hoover, and that helped catapult the Great Depression) to anyone who makes the same amount. (Also, don’t be fooled, the tax cuts are the SECOND part of his plan. The first part is to allow the Bush tax cuts [which were responsible for the rebate checks in 2001] to expire. So first, he’ll let the Bush tax cuts expire, then he’ll “lower” [theoretically] the taxes to a rate which is HIGHER THAN THE CURRENT RATE. This still counts as a tax cut, because the law, at that point, would be different, but as a net cost, the taxes are going UP.) Then with the money that he takes from the rich he wants to give back to the middle class, so that they in turn can become the rich. I get a little confused by this because it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Why would you encourage people to experience the “American Dream,” and then penalize them for achieving it?
I always thought that part of the “American Dream” was being dependent on yourself and yourself alone, that you WORK your way up to the top; depending on what YOU perceive the “top” to be. Work… now that is a novel idea- actually having to do something other than cry or whine to get what you want. People say that it isn’t “fair” that some people have this and it isn’t “fair” that they don’t have that. Here’s a bit of advice that I was given 26 years ago, LIFE ISN’T FAIR. If you don’t like the way things are going in your life, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Don’t stand around and complain about how it shouldn’t be that way. Furthermore, what gives you the right to take what someone else has worked for because you want a piece of the pie? Give me a break.

I’m not wealthy by any means, I didn’t grow up wealthy and unless I win the lottery in the future I don’t expect to become wealthy; so I am completely unbiased here, actually-Obama’s plan might help me (that is, until he raises my taxes too). But I don’t want it. I don’t want ANY part of it. I’d rather earn my money and earn respect, than to accept a hand out from anyone. I believe that this is one of the biggest problems facing America today. People have been conditioned to believe that they deserve things in life and in return they become too dependent on the government and not dependent on themselves. People keep standing in line to receive that government hand out, when they should be receiving a hand up. What happened to the days of people working two or three jobs to make ends meet? What happened to working 14 hour days to make sure that your family had food to eat and clothes to wear? I’ve always thought that the government is there to protect you, not provide for you.

The media is constantly talking about the rising unemployment rate and I just don’t get it. I know for a fact that the U.S. military is always hiring. Now I know, I know, not everyone is cut out for the military. I know that it is much easier to complain about not having a job, complain about not having a place to live, and complain about not having health insurance than it is take the actions to fix your problems. It’s easier to waste 20 years of your life struggling to take care of your family than it would be for you to sacrifice 4 years of your life to gain valuable work experience, learn a trade or defend the country that has allowed you to have so many options.

Sorry, I’ve gotten off track… back to Obama’s tax policy… Okay, so you tax the rich- what do you think the rich will do? If I were rich and someone told me that they were going to take some of my money I would probably make cuts to my budget. First, because I’m not a heartless jerk I would probably raise my prices to try to make up for the money that the government has taken away, so that I can still pay all of my taxes, keep my employees and pay for their healthcare. Of course raising my prices during an economic crisis probably won’t bring much change because most people couldn’t afford the prices before I raised them much less after, but that’s what I would do. After I’ve raised my prices and waited a few months I realize, just as I thought, I’m still not making any money-so, I start making more drastic cuts. In order to not lay off any of my employees maybe I’ll decide to stop paying for their healthcare-but wait, under Obama’s plan I’ll be fined for doing that; there goes that idea. Let’s see, I’m already having a hard time, so when I try to save my employees from having to stand in the unemployment line, I try to do something that will allow them to keep their jobs, but that will make me lose MORE money-so what other choice do I have but to lay off some of my employees? This is exactly how things will go, I promise you. Oh wait, I forgot to point out that under Obama’s plan, for every new employee I hire I will get a $3,000 credit! YES!! That will help pay I don’t know, a month- a month and a half’s worth of salary-MAYBE.
I work for a small business, and was having a conversation with someone about how Obama’s tax policy will affect me and my job. The person that I was talking to also works for a small business and said, “Well, good, the business owner should have to pay more.” I almost lost it, I had to bite my tongue to not say, “Well, I hope that you are first one to lose their job if Obama wins this election.” And it’s true, I hope that EVERY ONE of these anti-American jerks loses their job and has the worst four years of their life.
And as far as this crap about giving 95% of American’s a tax break goes, how can you do that when 40% of the population doesn’t pay taxes! It’s a joke! What is he going to do, send everyone a check regardless if they work or not? “When you spread the wealth around…. I believe it’s good for everybody,” are you kidding me?!?! This is socialism at its finest! Please tell me ONE nation or government that this ACTUALLY worked in! Let me give you an example of how ridiculous this is: I went to the grocery store and bought some sugar, going by what Obama says we should do, I should divvy up that sugar into 12 equal parts (because that is how many homes are in my building) and distribute it to all of the residents of my apartment complex; because it isn’t fair for me to have more sugar than anyone else. I know some of you will say that it isn’t the same thing, but you’re wrong, it is. If you take out the word sugar and replace it with money, it would be exactly what Obama is insinuating that we do, and this my friends is socialism. I was reading a book today about an unrelated topic and found a quote that was so relevant to our current situation that I feel obligated to include it in this essay. The author of Season of Strangers writes, “What the people… don’t realize is if it hadn’t been for the great division of wealth… throughout the ages, none of your magnificent antiques would exist. No castles, no palaces, no pyramids. You’d find yourselves living in the pale dim world of sameness.” She continues, “It takes money to accomplish things. Great fortune often equates with great beauty. That beauty is passed on to us all-or will be, once the art and the architecture commissioned by the men of wealth today is passed on to future generations.” And that is the most important arguement against our future as socialists. I refuse to one day tell my children or their children what it WAS like to be an American. I refuse to tell them the way things USED to be, like many present day Native Americans have to pass on stories through the generations on what it was like when they were free, and they had their land. How dare we not take a stand against this intrusion of our life and liberties. Our forefathers are probably rolling over in their graves at this assanine idea. Americans have shed their blood for this country and it’s ideals for hundreds of years and it seems as though no one cares anymore. To me, it seems that no one cares about the Constitution, no one cares about things that are fundamentally right and wrong and no one cares about our future; dear God, I hope that I am wrong

61. Average "Jeff" - October 20, 2008

O.K. so you say :”companies run wild without control” what about government running wild without control. Yes, banks making loans to maximize profits helped get us in this economic situation we are in, but WHO urged them to do it? No, who insisted that they do it?

ACORN, the dem’s… Yes, these people are the ones who insisted that it was a RIGHT to own a home! It is not a RIGHT, no where in the Constitution does it declare it is a RIGHT to own a home. You only have the RIGHT to the pursuit of happiness. It is up to the individual to “catch” the happiness by working hard and being responsible.

Who defended and profited from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Who pointed out that there were problems?

Yes, everyone got caught up in the NINGA loans, but who was at the root of the problem? The Democrats!

Who is getting the blame? The man who has seen this country through one of the most difficult times since Pearl Harbor.

Who supported the war against terrorism when it was a matter of dropping bombs, but when it got tough who runs!

You cannot root out terrorism by bombing a country and then leaving it in chaos. You have to see the process completely through to the end, no matter what the cost. If you do not, then you do not show the country you are trying to help what it truely means to be American and be free! You only leave them with empty promises and resentment, which helps foster the anti-American sentiments the terrorist prey on.

Yes I am a registered republican, but I am an American first! Those of you who support Obama more power to you, that is your right. But, I would suggest that you take a long, hard, unbiased look at who and what you are supporting. Look at both canidates and their backgrounds and see who really stands up for America and the beliefs of what this country was founded on.

62. American - October 20, 2008

To American abroad, I don’t know what rock you are living under but you are on some serious drug, no dought. I lived there for 4 years and had plenty of German friends. They do not get a tax credit for new equipment they buy or new stuff they build. As for the stuff beside the road. The German neighbors would always let us know when tax time was coming, we knew the exact day they would put the stuff out by the road. I had friends with small businesses and ask them why didn’t they expand because they had more business than they could handle, they replied with my last letter. So, I don’t know if you are just trying to hide the dirt of Germany or you’re just stupid. Stupid of course, you gave up 18% of your retirement to retire early, over 20 years later, that is a great sum of money.

63. Norman Thomas Quote Says it ALL - October 20, 2008

“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.” – Norman Thomas

64. erbis - October 20, 2008

Yes, he is.

65. American - October 20, 2008

By the way, Americans don’t have to pay any special taxes like that. We pay taxes for what we buy, thats it. Germans can’t come in our house and charge us for anything we have.

66. An american abroad - October 20, 2008

Dear American,
I would really like to talk to your german friends. I suppose something was lost in the translation. I’ve been living here for over 30 years and my wife works for the german IRS so I know what I’m talking about. Believe me no german official has the right to enter a home without a court order. And it never happens to appraise for taxes!
Your comment about my early retirement may be true. In the States I’d have to wait 2 years longer (62) and also take a reduction in Social Security. You would be supprised how many people in the US take an early retirement if they can afford it.

67. Wendy - October 20, 2008

As one of the 95% of Americans that will get a tax break, who cares if the top 5% will get an increase in tax. So, the top 5% will have to scale back on the number of homes they own or cars or private schools or vacations or bling bling. Why should I be concern about them. Evidently they do not care anything for the other 95% since they are definitely not sharing any of their wealth with us but looking for schemes to keep every dollar. Plus our government just bailed out 700 billions dollars to the riches people in the world and I don’t hear people on here talking socialism. So, if the gov’t wants to give me anything extra my hands are open to accept.

68. J. Elsmore - October 20, 2008

Obama is bringing change that we do not want or need.
He will raise taxes which will tanks our economy.

So its pretty easy to decide. Stimulate the economy with lower taxes or bury the economy with higher taxes.
If the small business owners are planning on shutting down or laying off as soon as Obama wins…You need to ask yourself is that a good way to go?

McCain/Palin – Change that is the better of the two choices!

69. federalist - October 20, 2008

Thank you, Wendy, for illustrating how democracy can lead to socialism. See also my previous posts on this problem here and here.

Our country’s original Constitution and civic conscience would have allowed no such thing. But today too many Americans believe that it’s OK to steal as long as it’s done by Government.

70. let liberty live - October 20, 2008

What is wrong with socialism and Obama is this. He thinks he has the right in a free market capitalistic system to say someone makes too much and they should BE MADE to give it to those who don’t have. It is no longer free or capitalistic when you steal from the rich to give to the poor. What made this country great is that people of all classes have the opportunity if they make or take it to be in that top 5%. Watch what happens when Obama’s government start trying to take care of the poor. Philanthropies and people who share part of their wealth in donations to charitable organizations will be force to cut back, as most will not want to lower their standard of living. If my taxes go up and my bank account goes down, the first thing I cut is my charitable donations which is about 10%of our income. That’s what we did during the Clinton Administration. But the most important and overlooked fear of an Obama administration is the appointment of Supreme Court Justices. Think of the radical left wing judges Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Reid will put on the bench.
Talk about socialism, I say closer to communism if that happens. The conservatives of this land will be silenced by the courts. Be afraid, be very afraid.

71. Sandra - October 20, 2008



72. D. Collins - October 20, 2008

Please read the following frfom the Democratic Socialist Party of America website and see if their plan for America sounds very familiar with Senator Obama’s:

Thus, DSA offers its Economic Justice Agenda and its “four pillars” as a framework for such a
progressive policy agenda. This program calls for:
1. Restoring progressive taxation to the levels before the Reagan administration and
enacting massive cuts in wasteful defense spending;
2. Enacting single-payer universal health insurance and expanding public initiatives in child
care, elder care and pension security;
3. Passing the Employee Free Choice Act as part of a broader effort to rebuild a powerful
labor movement capable of achieving equity in the labor market; and
4. Implementing a U.S. foreign policy that promotes global institutions that advance labor,
environmental, and human rights and regulate transnational corporations.
True democracy is not about one woman or man promising change for the American public. That
takes consistent pressure from below. Who holds the presidency does matter, if only as a more
accessible target for pressure. A Democratic presidency and Congress would also create popular
expectations that rising inequality and injustice will be curbed. If the Democrats frustrate those
hopes (as they did in the early 1960s), mass mobilization is likely to grow rather than subside.
Nor should the Left be so involved in the national presidential campaign that it ignores the fall
primaries and general election races for the U.S. House and Senate. We need more progressives
in Congress as well as increased Democratic majorities.
The November election can’t be the end of a fight, but its beginning, and connections made on a
local and national level leading up to November can position the Left to play a role in struggles
to come.
Paid for by Democratic Socialists of America PAC, 75 Maiden Lane, Suite 505, NY, NY 10038;
not approved by any candidate or candidate’s committee.

73. Proud to be an American - October 20, 2008

To those of you who support the socialist agenda that Barrack Obama has for America –

Our nation has been founded as a democracy on capitalist principles. If you think that the socialist policies work so well, then move to a socialist nation.

74. An american abroad - October 20, 2008

Dear let liberty live,
it is interesting that you cut back on your (tax deductible) donation during the clinton admin. I can’t find where Clinton raised the taxes at 10%. Believe me the really rich will still contribute as long as its tax deductible. And to fear that Obama will lead us into socialism or communism, when Bush just brought through a $700 billion bill to regulate the motor of capitalism and free entreprise, is incomprehensible for me. You fear Obama might do something and you are not worried that Bush did it? (of course not alone).
So many of you say time and time again, the constitution is the greatest on earth and we must protect it. I agree! But if you agree with that then you must agree that our founding fathers built checks and balances into the constitution. The scales are not digital they are more analog. It might take time but they will balance out in the long run. Stop propagating fear and start propagating confidence in our country.

75. AMF - October 20, 2008

Since we’re going to spread the wealth, what’s the use of me going to work? GOD FORBID any of you “spread the wealth” advocates ever make it-you won’t want the government taking you hard earned money.

76. West Palm Beach - October 20, 2008

This is to Wendy #74. I’m dissapointed to hear that your hands are open to accept handouts. You didn’t mention that you were handicapped so I am going to assume that you are a healthy American. You obviously have at least an average IQ. If I had to guess, I would say that you are an underachiever, maybe graduated high school. Maybe went to a technical school at the very most.

I lost both of my parents before I was out of high school. I took out a student loan (which took me years to pay back) and I went to school full time while working as a waitress. I worked hard all of my life because I didn’t know there was any other choice. In my family, welfare was out of the question (although I’m sure if my mother and father could not have fed their children) they may have put that pride aside. I just don’t remember that ever being an option. The option was my father working double shifts. Those values were embedded into the fabric of my personality and I value them. When I buy a new car or a piece of new furniture – I feel so good that I got that because of my achievements and hard work.

The point Wendy is that I’m not willing to give you a handout – I’m just an orphan that worked too hard to give it away to people that just want a handout!!!

77. lizA180 - October 20, 2008

“To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists.”

“I ceased to advertise my mother’s race at the age of twelve or thirteen, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.”

“I can no more disown (Jeremiah Wright) than I can disown the black community.”

“You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

“The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more.”

-Barack Obama

He said it! He was quoted. This guy is so close to being elected, it is scary.

78. An american abroad - October 20, 2008

Just a small question. How many of you sent back the $300 check that was given to us this year (more if your married) from the government? Or the one in 2001? I tried to send back the first one but the IRS would not accept it. They said it would cost more to take it back than it was worth. This year I didn’t try. Were those the handouts you guys don’t accept?

79. Average "Jeff" - October 20, 2008

To ‘An american abroad’

Look up an email that is being circulated that was written by Huntley Brown. I note that he did not intend on his email being circulated.

If it matters to you or anyone else – Why a Christian can not vote for Obama!

This is not spreading fear! This is spreading REAL Hope!

Look it up!

God Bless America!!

80. federalist - October 20, 2008

“An American Abroad,” that’s just silly: If you don’t want to take your “stimulus” or “rebate” check all you have to do is tear it up; the money won’t leave the treasury.

It is not inconsistent to accept money from the government and at the same time oppose government handouts. Of course I cashed the stimulus checks I received: I believe I was overtaxed to begin with, and I will do everything legally possible to deprive the government of my money so long as the government is forcibly taking it for purposes that I believe are unconstitutional. I will take back any money I can while I vote against politicians who would continue to take and spend my money (including by sending out “stimulus” checks).

81. Not one for a handout - October 20, 2008

I think most of you get it, but speaking here does not solve anything.

I for one am getting my voice out there where the people can see it.

Take this to the real world outside and let your neighbors know how you feel about this election.

I have a sign on my car which states Obama has a Socialist Agenda.

I did this mainly because of the fear I was hearing from people. They were concerned for their safety and mine.

From possible voilent actions by Obama’s supporters.

When any race for office gets to the point that people fear their own safety rather then speaking their minds….it’s time to get invovled more and let as many people know how you feel.

Their are alot of us here in Eastern Washington who want change but we don’t feel Obama is the right way.

Speak up America and don’t let the Obama fear machine keep you silent!

82. BOB - October 20, 2008

I come from a liberal Democrat background, plus I am also a Poli Sci Major. TAXING the so called RICH and putting the money into somebody elses pocket is Socialism at the highest level. It is taking money from the job creators and investors and putting the money into somebody elses pocket who does not really contribute.

So I believe from my former experience I can seriously smell out a Socialist, Communist, Nazi, Facist (They are all one in the same)

I have also traveled extensively in Europe where socialism is dominant and what I saw was high unemployment 10 – 12 percent, lots of govenment housing and not incentive to work and improve ones standard of living. Eventually over a period of time this preceived idealistic political philosophy will implode on itself due to taxing the job creators and transferring the wealth eventually nobody cares or has any personal incentives to work and you can only take so much money away and there is nothing left and everybody’s standard of living will drop and society will implode.

Ask yourself have you ever known a poor person that has given you a job? The best JOB CREATORS are the ones who have money and either invest into a business or into stocks and bonds, or buy goods and services – this creates JOBS. I have experienced this personally for myself since I am an entrepreneur and investor and I was able to create 60 jobs and out of those jobs the people that worked for me were able to pay for their children to go to college. That is not income distribution that is creating a job filling a need and creating an opportunity for a person to better themselves and pull up their standard living – not through taxation and transfer of wealth and more govenment programs that do not work.

Ask yourself has somebody like OBAMA and liberals ever created a business and hired people and met a payroll?

I also agree about OBAMA and his associations – yes it is about the issues, but your personal associations family, friends, etc are what mold your thinking and who you are and create your critical thinking towards solving the issues – you hang out also with like minded people who agree with you – OBAMA historically hung out with the radical left who advocate VIOLENT OVER THROW OF THE US GOVERNMENT – due to his associations he could not even get a Security Clearance and image that having the President of the US that can not even pass Security Clearance, now that is really scarey.

83. Sven - October 20, 2008

I think that most people take socialism as an extreme view of government. I don’t think that it is. I was raised and born in a socialist country and have lived in the US for more than half of my life. I don’t fully agree with capitalistic views because I think that greed really becomes the final outcome. I think that the people benefit better when there is some sort of redistribution and that this could lead to a financial stimulus. After all, wasn’t that the point of the stimulus rebate? If more money is invested at the bottom of the pyramid, that is the middle class, then there is no way for the top to fall (upper class or richer people), because the money will be invested into the upper class. But, I can see why this would not work in the US. Most Americans are relatively lazy and are not willing to do their part. So, that is no wonder why people who work so hard would be unwilling to pay redistribute their money. But, then again, it shows how much greed is involved and greed is the cause to why there is such a current financial crisis. The wealthy don’t want to make the small sacrifices to help the national economy and boost up the economy, then why should the rest of the middle class?

84. Independent American - October 20, 2008

I spent 2 weeks living in the home of an upper level official in the Bundesbank (german Fed Reserve equivalent). We talked taxes. He is taxed at approx. 55% plus a value-added tax. He occupied half of an approx. 1500 square foot duplex house in a village near Weimar. He did not have near what we enjoy in America. Socialism is NOT what built America into the great country that it is (maybe was). Obama is, at worst, a Muslim sleeper Manchurean Candidate and, at best, a white-hating socialist/Marxist extremist who will take money from you and give it to those who don’t work as “earned” income credit. I am an independent (voted for Anerson in 80 and Perot in 92) and I will vote for McCain/Palin. The liberal media can kiss my @&%.

85. USAFGirl - October 20, 2008

Hi, I’m a Constitutional Republican. I realize you may not understand what this title means, allow me to explain: I will protect my Constitution by any means necessary. I will not vote someone into office that plans to amend my Constitution and disarm Americans, I vote for people that will protect my freedom as well as the freedom of all Americans – up to and including the unborn. I will not vote for someone that plans on changing the very foundation of my country. Sure, you can argue that MY Constitution is an old document, but you can’t deny it’s validity and the fact that this country, The United States of America, became the great nation is has been via this particular document and several others. I don’t seek to undo anything these documents have done, but I do want to IMPROVE UPON said documents – this does not involve making America’s forces weaker, this does not include introducing even MORE Socialism into our government and it certainly does not include electing a modern-day, less noble Robin Hood as my Commander-in-Chief. I don’t want to discourage people from wanting to achieve more, I don’t want successful people to think their hard work is all for naught. I want people to strive to be better, we are worth so much more than we give ourselves credit for. The United States of America, read it, not America, The UNITED States of America… it’s time we accepted that we are all one people, we are not all one income, we can be more than what is placed in our laps upon our birth. We have every opportunity to better ourselves. Yes some people have harder lives, partly because of decisions they have made and partly because of what was given to them, but we can be MORE. It’s up to US, as American citizens, to reach for what we want and not “expect” success and money to be handed to us. We have become a very, very lazy society and then we decide we’ll blame it on our government, one side of which is trying to discourage laziness, the other encouraging it. It’s easy to feel sorry for the less fortunate, it takes a big person to desire to help those in need, but people are free to make the decision of where their money goes. Bottom line: The money in the top earner’s pockets… is their money, THEY decide how to spend it, if they want to give it or if they just want to save it, it is NOT the government’s place to tell them how to distribute their money. A flat tax is the only fair solution to this problem and it isn’t going to happen with Obama or McCain, but at least McCain isn’t going to dictate who needs to pay and where that individual’s money is going to go. Instead of looking FAR Left or Right, we need to look in the middle because this is where most Americans are and that is the truth.

86. An american abroad - October 20, 2008

Dear Independent American,
I could care less who you vote for. I would like to set one thing straight though. There seem to be a missunderstanding when comparing the two tax systems. In America there is personal income tax and payroll taxes, so everyone refers to both as taxes. In Germany there is income tax which theoretically can be up to 53% but the highest paid is 49% and that only with a few percent of the taxpayers. The payroll taxes (health care and social security) are not taxes in Germany. If you make enough money or you are self employed you do not have to participate in the programms. Of course you won’t get anything from them either. As for the value-added tax think of it as a combination of state and federal excise tax. It is higher (19%) but it is about midfield in Europe. The EU is pushing to have Germany raise it to harmonize the taxes. I’m certainly not saying it is a better system. It is just different. And one should know these differences when comparing the 2 tax systems.

87. DaleS - October 20, 2008

I would love to see solid facts listed side by side of each candidate and their running mate. I would like to see their ACTUAL accomplishments, their failures and their activity/relationships.

We’ve gone so far from our constitution when it comes to running this country which is a sin. I wish we had a better choice in mind (Ron Paul or Bob Barr) to get us back to that which made this country great. Unofortunatley We don’t. The closest we have is McCain. What really scares me is all of the unknowns with Obama and it’s unreal the amount of associations with him that are highly questionable and yet people tend to just gloss over them as bad luck or happenstance. That can fly once or twice but when you look at all of this it’s absurd to avert your eyes to it. These are the things that give me GREAT concern about Obama and make it shocking to me this man is being seriously considered to run this country:

Obama’s Mentors:
Reverand Wright – Attends a church for 20 years. A church based on black theology (Look at their website) which preaches white hate. The preacher clearly a racist screaming rants of “God Damn America” and calling it the KKK of America etc. We’re to be made to believe that he spent 20 years listenting to this man, calling him a mentor but not agreeing with all of this???? Ludicrous.
Frank Marshall Davis – This person was Obama’s father figure when his father abandoned him. This person, his mentor, is a communist. A well known communist who hates capitalism.

Obama’s Associations:

Michelle Obama: His wife made the statement this is the first time she has been proud of our country? Obama tried to blow this off as not his feelings.

Rev. Wright – Considered a personal friend and Obama even put him on a commission with him. This man is plainly a racist. This would be the equivalent of McCain going to watch KKK rallies for 20 years and then turn around and say..”well I don’t really believe in what they’re saying”. I would call total BS on that just the same.

William Ayers – A known terrorist. Tried to bomb his own country and doesn’t regret it. Still to this day wishes he had done more. Obama first tried to say he had no assocations but then he had to change his tune. He’s been on several board committees with this man and was in charge of funds that were donated to this man’s causes. Furthermore he got his start as Senator at this MAN’s HOUSE!!!! And yet we’re to believe that was just all coincidental.

Tony Rezco: A man convicted of fraud and bribery. Plain as day this guy purchased one half of the lot that Obama bought his house on then turned around and sold it to Obama saving him $300,000 when the market was hot. And we’re to again believe that Obama did nothing shady here. This guy was just being nice and handing over $300k in equity and there was nothing more to it than that??? Again, Ludicrous!

ACORN: This organization has admitted to and been convicted of voter registration fraud. They have bribed people with cigarrets and money to sign voter registration forms some individuals upto 70+ registrations. This again cannot be disputed as there are interviews with the actual people ACORN approached and did this with along with the fraudulent registrations they submitted to the government. They’ve been busted on this every other year or like 3 times. They’re supposed to be a non-partisan group yet they go around wearing Obama shirts. Obama’s campaign donated funds to this organization ($80k plus) and they tried to hide it by labeling it as funds for maintenance or something. When busted they had to confess to this so called “label mistake”…WAKE UP!

I know there is more than this that I can’t think of right now.

Obama’s Beliefs:
This is hard to pin down but essentially he comes off strongly as a supporter of marxism/communism. He won’t outright say this but that’s what his policies, his mentorship and his actions say. He wants to redistribute wealth again this is what his policies say. He talks about giving 95% tax cuts and yet he’s redefining what a tax cut is. 45% of the people he’s claiming will get a tax cut DON’T PAY Federal taxes. This is called federal Welfare plain and simple NOT A TAX CUT.

None of the above is made up..it’s all factual information that can be verified. The only thing you have ask is how these things are to be interpreted. Now any one of these things by themselves should raise eyebrows and MAYBE you could say well that was just bad luck. To supplant excuses and “I never knew” mentality to all of these together is completely sticking your head in the sand.

88. Mi2Ci - October 20, 2008

I know a friend from UK, whose uncle was old and got sick, he was taken to the hospital, the doctor gave him some medicine and sent him home, and a week later, he went back to see the doctor again as he did not feel any improvement, and he was sent back home again, 2 days later, he died.

You all know UK is national healthcare, my friend told me it is the practice in UK like this when you are old, the system does not support olds, they save the money for young people, it is what you have when you have national healthcare. So he is very angry, he has given up his US citizen and join the US as a citizen two years old. I am wondering where he is going next.

To be honest, most Americans have NEVER been out the US, you do NOT know what happen in those solicialism countries, the national healthcare is not for free, somebody got to pay it. And the service is terrible, it just so sad to see you American imagine it is a good system and blindly follow.

Do you know there is private healthcare system in UK and other European countries? Do you know you will be treated differently in the national healthcare as executives? Do you know you need to wait for months for a MRI? Do you know how many people go for private healthcare because they cannot afford to wait in a long line in the national healthcare care? In the current election trend, it will be too late when you find out, Americans!!!!!!!

89. disgusted with mccain - October 20, 2008

If the Republicans steal this election too I’ll never vote again!!

90. DaleS - October 20, 2008

BOB… I hadn’t even thought of the point you made, quote below,

“I also agree about OBAMA and his associations – yes it is about the issues, but your personal associations family, friends, etc are what mold your thinking and who you are and create your critical thinking towards solving the issues – you hang out also with like minded people who agree with you – OBAMA historically hung out with the radical left who advocate VIOLENT OVER THROW OF THE US GOVERNMENT – due to his associations he could not even get a Security Clearance and image that having the President of the US that can not even pass Security Clearance, now that is really scarey.”

but that is a truly amazing and terrifying point. My brother was a presidental pilot on HMX-1 (helicopter Marine-1). He flew Bush (Sr) and Clinton (4 yr stint). I recall him saying to me one time that he was almost not able to get clearance due to one of my sisters and her ways. She’s not radical by any strech of the imagination she’s just has her issues (all completely non-political).

91. DaleS - October 20, 2008

“discgusted with mccain” All I can says is do your research. If anyone is trying to steal an election it’s Obama. ACCORN has been busted for voter registration fraud multiple times and they’re working significantly in the swing states. They’re clearly Obama supporters and he’s donated to their cause. Wake up!!

92. disgusted with mccain - October 20, 2008

DaleS I am wide awake! I’m sick and tired of mudslinging and name calling. This has been a very ugly election and after 8 years of Bush I just can’t stomach another republican administration. The last 8 years have been filled with lies and arrogance. We deserve better.

93. DaleS - October 20, 2008

Actually I hear you. I want to be clear here…i’m disgusted with both parties mind you. They’ve both miserably failed us and both are far from what they were 10 years ago. My preferance would be to vote for Barr or Paul i’m just fearful that due to the limitation of our voting system i’d be throwing my vote away (this is an area that could be fixed mind you).

I’m very concerned however where Obama would take this country and as Bob pointed out it’s amazing to think that due to his actions he wouldn’t even be able to get security clearance for many governement positions due to his affiliations…that is truely amazing to think that he’s running for the highest office in the land.

94. USAFGirl - October 20, 2008

Look, I don’t think the hearsay is proving any point, taking irrelevant stories and posting them in an attempt to make people feel Obama’s plans will fail as all of the above examples have… is just silly. I definitely do not support Obama, but it’s not because he *could* be Muslim, it’s not because his middle name is “Hussein” (a very common name, btw), it’s not because he’s half African-American, it’s not because he’s an “elitist,” it’s not because he’s not Republican or because he claims to be Democrat. I’m not backing Barack Obama because his plans lack substance, they seem nice on paper, but they’re not practical. His plans aren’t what we need, we need something solid at this time. He’s young, he’s fiery, he’s different, he preaches about change, but… what, in his record, has he really changed? Not much. Sarah Palin has more in her fairly short record. People talk about McCain “agreeing”/”voting” alongside Bush 95% of the time, I’m sorry, but not all of Bush’s proposals and ideals have been a failure, so I really don’t see what the big freaking deal is with that. We like to play the blame game here in The United States of America, we fail to realize the President is not there to be our scapegoat and he is not the sole decision maker of our nation. Hate Bush all you want, I don’t care if you agree with his personal beliefs or religion, but stop acting like everything the man has done has been bad. Seriously, give me a break. Reality sucks, but we can’t take the USA back to a pre-9/11/2001 America, this is a post 9/11 America and it’s not going to change. It’s a nice thought, but we have to deal with reality. Whether or not you agree with the war we’re involved in is your prerogative, but we’re already in this mess and actually making way, so back off. We’re not trying to take over other countries and make them ours, we’re trying to allow them to govern themselves, while offering protection. Yes, there have been casualties, but we’re finally at the point where we’re pulling out of Fallujah, yes, you heard me… FALLUJAH. It’s astounding, I wonder why this isn’t all over the news? Oh right, because Joe the Plumber and his back taxes are more important. America’s vision is skewed, we don’t know what our priorities are or should be. We need to grow the hell up is what we need to do.

95. disgusted with mccain - October 20, 2008

Dale S well my mind is set and up until this year I was a republican. I can only vote the way i believe is right and so can you. Good Luck to you and everyone Who’s gong to vote we’re going to need it!

96. USAFGirl - October 20, 2008

DaleS, yes, I’d like to see Obama get TS clearance, lol. :)

97. Waxhaw, NC - October 20, 2008


A lesson in history (American History) will reveal that, prior to the Great Depression, there was no tax on a person’s income and no limit on the amount of deductions and exclusions one could legally claim on a tax return.

Then FDR came along and changed all that. Thanks Frank! But that income tax scheme did NOT bring us out of the Great Depression, nor did any other social redistribution program of the time aid in any kind of reformation. It was, in fact, WWII that brought us out of the Great Depression.

98. Jeff the Painter - October 20, 2008

Brant wrote: “Fear and anger are powerful tools, because they cloud rational thought and reason. Remember that fear and anger were the primary motivators in the fascist’s rise to power in Hitler’s Germany and Mussolini’s Italy.”

I find it fascinating that liberals ( like Brant) equate Conservative Republican thought to the Nazi party led by Adolf Hitler . Anyone with even the slightest bit of knowledge of history knows that the Nazi party’s official title was, ” National Socialist German Workers’ Party”. Prior to 1920 it was called the, ” German Workers Party”. Nazism is rooted in the same ideals, thoughts and motivations as people like Barack Obama. Although Hitler spoke out against Marxism Obama finds himself in the same anti- Zion camp. Obama speaks loudly for the middle class- same as Herr Hitler which separated Nazism from the popular Socialism of the day. So in reality those who label Obama, ” Marxist” are wrong….he is just good ol’ plain socialistic.

99. Jeff the Painter - October 20, 2008

Disgusted with MCain said:

“If the Republicans steal this election too I’ll never vote again!!”

Here’s to the Republicans “stealing” this election! If McCain wins can we get a phone number from you to verify your comments?

100. c.ecker - October 21, 2008

Socialist or not, its should be clear to everyone that Obama’s plans are to grow government, and to do that and balance the budget, he will have to raise taxes by a mighty amount. Obama’s plans are simply unrealistic, leaving me to believe he’s simply stating nonsense to get elected, and has no intention of actually carrying out his party’s platform. McCain, on the other hand, has real workable plans like a freeze on all gov’t spending and using a tax on health insurance to pay for a health insurance credit. MCCAIN / PALIN – A CHANGE IS COMING!

101. Capitalism is Good - October 21, 2008

It is clear, but many here in America WANT handouts. Many do not want to work. Example:

I help out at the gospel mission once a month. I saw one particular gentleman who attends our church at a dinner one night at the mission. At the age of 25 He basically has been shunned by his entire family. I asked him why he is homeless? Before he could respond a “friend” of his from the mission said, ” I wake up, I get a hot breakfast, noon: Lunch, supper time I get another hot meal and a very comfortable bed at night..I’d be crazy to leave here”.

Now, granted my heart goes out to him as he comes to grips with his faith and how that intertwines with his ability to work/emotional dehabilitations. He gets depressed and overwhelmed. why? Some would say because of his past. His family life growing up was quite fractured. I would agree but would add that a good work ethic can be taught. I know this man has the potential because he tagged along with my family last weekend as we helped a friend move all her belongings in a Ryder truck 50 miles
away. This man worked hard and sweat rolled down his cheeks. His demeanor changed. He smiled a lot. His focus was taken off of himself and transferred onto someone else. This man does not need money stolen from the top 5% By people like Obama. What he needs are chances to serve others and to better himself by working hard.

One day my friend will get some of the rich mans money: through hard work, discipline and perseverence. He will be hired by a greedy capitalist who will pay him handsomely to make him money.

My friend wants to go to college and become an accountant. It is m y prayer that one day he achieves his dreams. Hopefully, Obama is not president and will be unable to take this mans money and redistribute it.

102. Former Democrat - October 21, 2008

Liberals hate being called “liberal”.

Conservatives love being called Conservative”

Liberals hate the word “socialism” and will divert any conversation by claiming they are not really socialists.

Conservatives love the word “capitalism” and unashamedly speak highly of it enagaging positively anyone who is willing.

103. tsfiles - October 21, 2008

If you speak the truth about liberals, as whiskey did, for some reason, they get angry and lash out like children.

Yes, Obama is a Communist, and there’s nothing wrong in stating the truth.

104. Ron - October 21, 2008

If you speak the truth about liberals, as whiskey did, for some reason, they get angry and lash out like children.

Look at the comments my dear and tell me who was lashing out like children, I bet you’ll be surprised.
Instead of talking nonsense, go read some books about What is Capitalism and the evolution of it, and about Communism, because you seem misinformed.

105. disgusted with mccain - October 21, 2008

if being a liberal means open to change, being free from prejudice and bigotry and being open minded then I am proud to be liberal.

106. Ron - October 21, 2008

well put my friend

107. DaleS - October 21, 2008

Open to change, free from being prejudice and bigotry and being open minded are all good things and I stand for them as a conservative. Unfortunately the strong liberal agenda that is being pushed is about much more than that lately. It’s about trying to control others and being having Nanny states. If you want to donate money to some cause have at it..I have causes I donate to as well. But stop trying to dictate how everyone donates…

Ron you speak ill of capitalism but it is what has made this country the best country in the world. Take a look at all the other countries modeling after us..it’s because of our success and it’s a good thing. If you don’t like capitalism there are plenty of other countries with strong socialist beliefs. Just go there.

For some crazy reason lately if you make a profit you’re evil…utterly ridiculous. I’m not for greed and there’s plenty of that out there but the system does work these things out without the government steping all over the freemdoms this country stands for.

I’m so tired of victim mentality. The two most significant things this country has lost over the recent years has been responsibility and accountability. Our leaders are the worst and they have been pushing this same thing down to the people. It’s horrible and it needs to stop. This problem is in our government as a whole it’s Democrats and Republicans alike.

108. Ron - October 21, 2008

Glad you mention this DaleS, if capitalsim means that the super power of companies (and I’m mainly talking about big ones) can’t be controlled by anyone, if capitalism means less social justice, if capitalism means give more to the rich because the poor can wait, then yes I speak ill of THIS kind of capitalism.

I’m not Ron the Carpenter or whatever, I’m not poor, BUT I’m defending a fair cause, there will always be rich people and poor people, THE RICH SURELY DESERVE TO BE RICH (well most of them), and the POOR SURELY DESERVE TO HAVE A DECENT LIFE. there’s no robin hood, and poor people surely don’t want handouts, BUT they want what they deserve, and in the actual situation they deserve MORE than what they’re getting.

So the difference between you and me, between obama and mccain, is that McCain doesn’t think that we should change this actual situation, he doesn’t think (or doesn’t understand) that the actual Capitalism must be readjusted for a better one. On the other hand, Obama understands that the actual Capitalism can continue no longer, and must be readjusted to focus on the people who has been left aside.

Capitalism wasn’t created perfect, and was always adjusted as the world changed, but the changes always faced human nature which doesn’t like the change, which fears it (even for our own good). and the McCain campaign is playing on that fear, because Obama’s message from the beginning was CHANGE, so now they try to say that this Change isn’t for the better. The truth is they’re clinging to their last chance of winning, FEAR. But that’s not gonna work this time, this time we’ll have THE CHANGE WE WANT.

109. federalist - October 21, 2008

Which confirms my original point: Obama (like his supporter here Ron) advocates socialist policies — i.e., increasingly using government to control the distribution of wealth (e.g., to transfer wealth from “the rich” to “the poor”).

Ron says, “The poor surely deserve to have a decent life.” Marx advocated the same policies, though perhaps more eloquently: “From each according to his means, to each according to his needs.”

110. Ron - October 21, 2008

Adjusting Capitalism doesn’t mean Replacing it with Socialism, the differences between Socialism and Capitalism are DEPEER THAN TWO SENTENCES ;), Capitalism needs another evolution.

Read the History of Capitalism, you’ll find out by yourselves. from mercantilism to capitalism, to industrial capitalism, TO FINANCIAL CAPITALISM.

Did the classical school of economics call KEYNES a Socialist when he proposed changes?? YES THEY DID, but he is no more socialist than Adam Smith. And for those who don’t know who is Keynes, he’s basically the one who found the solution to the Great Depression.

[Sorry Ron, but I can’t let this gratuitous historical revisionism slip on my blog. Keynes and his economics are quite contentious. Here’s a first pointer to those who want to research. — Federalist]

111. DaleS - October 21, 2008

You really need to move past all the emotions and feelings you have wrapped up in this. All this speculation on this group imposing Fear to get their way is completely off point and of no use.

Stick to the facts

Obama = Bigger Government
Even you have to agree governement does very little well in fact arguably nothing well. Government is absolutely the worst at operating a business. Easily proven. Just look at where they’ve stuck their hands in and you’ll easily find major corruption and broken systems. Amtrack is one simple example where government has stepped in and subsidized. For every person who travels on Amtrack a lot of money is lost. I don’t have the numbers but when the oil prices rose a hoard of people starting travelling on Amtrack. Now you would think Amtrack would be pleased..”Hey look at all the business we’re getting…isn’t that great!” No…just the opposite. The quote from those running things were “Amtrack was never setup to be a profitable organization.”. Isn’t that fantastic…so the more people used this great business the more money it lost i.e. costed the tax payer…great business practices. If only all business could work under that paradigm how well off would we be? We would be dead.

Obama wants to bring even more free entrprise under the government wings…even though it’s plain as day government is horrible at running things.

Obama has mentioned creating some $150 billion (not sure of exact figure) of new “Green Jobs”. Sounds great eh? I’m all for green jobs but this implies the government running these businesses or employing these people as oposed to free enterprise…this is a TERRIBLE idea! The government PRODUCES NOTHING! $150 billion in tax breaks to free-enterprise market to create these jobs..i’m all for.

Obama = Socialism at best, Marxism at worst. This cannot be denied. Look at his mentors, look at his policies, look at his statements. He wants to spread the wealth. Take from the rich and give to the poor. I’m not rich but this is not a good idea. The tax cut claimed to be for 95% of the people would give a PAYMENT to 45% of the people who don’t pay in taxes. That is redistribution of wealth…not a good idea. Are you for that?

You are delusional if you think that Obama is going to make government run better. We need less government and responsible spending.

112. Doug - October 21, 2008

How do we know if Barrack Obama is a Socialist? One way to determine this and if he has Socialist tendencies is to review his voting record in the United States Senate with Bernard “Bernie” Sanders the so-called Independent Senator from Vermont but self-described “democrat-socialist”.

Please go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders or http://sanders.senate.gov/ and review Senator Sanders’s bio.

Let’s review the 110th Congress Session 1 of 2007 Senate Voting Records.
• Party Percent is defined as the percentage voting with one’s Party Majority either Yea or Nay.

Senator Party Percent Vote with Sanders Percent
John McCain 88% 34%
Jeff Sessions 89% 36%
Jon Kyl 86% 30%
Mitch McConnell (Party Leader) 92% 35%

Bernard Sanders (Independent) 95% 100%

Barrack Obama 96% 92%
Barbara Boxer 96% 89%
Dianne Feinstein 94% 85%
Harry Reid (Party Leader) 96% 92%

If Barrack Obama votes 92% of the time with a “Socialist” does that fact make him and his Democratic Party lending towards “Socialism”, just a question?

Remember the immortal words of John Adams “Facts are stubborn things”.

I got my United States Senate voting data at http://SenateReports.com you can too!

113. An american abroad - October 22, 2008

DaleS, I hate to dampen your statement but I hear this so often it makes me sick. Obama didn’t say he would reduce taxes for 95% of the people. He claims he will have a tax cut for 95% of the working people. Those are people who usually pay taxes.

114. DaleS - October 22, 2008

No worries “An american abroad” about dampening my comment. I want clarity and it’s been very difficult to find. Still given the correction to my wording that this “95% tax cut applies to working familes” everything i’ve read continues to state that about 40% who effectively don’t pay any income taxes will recived a “Tax Credit”. “Tax Credit” is the new phrase being used by the Obama campaign and it is misleading as it is truely a handout or welfare.



Again it’s hard to find good info on this. Above are two articles that go into more detail on this.

115. DaleS - October 22, 2008

If you haven’t checked them out you should also look at CAGW (Citizens Against Gov’t Waste). They’ve been around since the 1980’s and have saved billions of dollars in wasted spending especially on Pork Barrel projects. They’re non-partisan and get to the root of the problem and provide easy means to inform your political affiliates to be more transparrent in their dealings.


While you’re there take a look at the “Pig Book” here

To see what pork projects you friendly politicians are supporting. Interesting…search on Obama and McCain…hmm $90 mil for Obama this year alone…MCcain $0

No doubt the Ron’s and “I hate McCain’s of the world” will just say..oh that evil CAGW…they’re just trying to make our savior Obama look bad!! Keep telling yourself that….keep your head buried deep in that sand!

116. Independent American - October 22, 2008

Dear American Abroad,

Obama actually said “tax cut for 95% of the middle class”, not working Americans. Everybody knows politicians (Dems and Repubs) use parsed statistics to inflate themselves. We would have to know his definitions of middle class, etc. to know exactly what the truth is. But, remember, he will let the Bush tax cuts expire, so the “tax cut” is a cut from the a new rate higher than we are paying now. He will also increase cap gains, death tax, FICA for over $90K incomes (which is most dual income families), etc. The man has SAID he would “spread the wealth around” and his Marxist influences and friends really leave no doubt what he intends.

The scariest part is the cap gains increase. I am not rich. Sticking it to the rich appeals to my base side just like everybody else. BUT the investments of “the rich” are what drive our economic engine. If you increase cap gains, the investors put their money into a better investment, especially foreign investors like China who don’t exactly love us. To increase cap gains in a recession and go on a spending spree like Obama and Barney Franks have said they will do is to push the USA deeper into recession/depression. “Trickle up” economics is pure BS.

Add to this the culpability of the Dems and Obama in the mortgage collapse (Obama getting $520K from Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac for his opposition to putting the breaks on risky mortgages, Obama as ACORN lawyer pressuring banks to take on more risky loans or be called “racist”, the massive ACORN voter fraud going on….I am certainly no lover of the GOP, but there is no way on earth I could vote for Obama.

So, OK, we differ there. Back to German/Socialist system taxes: Do I understand you correctly that Germans can conceivably pay 53% plus 19% value-added tax (total of 72%) not including payroll taxes, which they would opt out of? Please clarify.

117. Vladislaw - October 23, 2008

So many false premises. The “rich” will invest their money REGARDLESS of what the personal tax rate is, they will invest their money in the market REGARDLESS what the capital gains tax is.

EVERYONE paid wages PAYS federal income tax. EVERY CHECK paid has federal tax DEDUCTIONS. So the poor pay taxes to the government which then holds that money, free of paying any interest on it. THEN the government GIVES BACK the taxes from the poor.

So, the poor PAY taxes, BUT after they file a FEDERAL RETURN they can see most or all of that returned, with NO INTEREST PAID.

So a poor person paying ANY TAX UPFRONT and INTEREST FREE, is at a serious disadvantage then a wealthy person. If someone earns 1 million a year and pays 35% they are NEVER going to starve, none of their kids will go without a home, food, clothes, medicince, gas, college, etc etc etc etc.

A poor person on minimum wage having to pay in 28% is under an ENORMOUS stress if gas prices rise, food prices rise, home heating prices rise. Granted they WILL get that tax back LATER, and with no interest.

118. Vladislaw - October 23, 2008

The point I was making is that when obama says 95% will see a tax cut he is correct. Even though someone is poor and gets all their taxes paid back, they DO PAY TAXES at a given rate.

So for a poor person earning at the bottom rung of the pay scale, they WILL SEE more DISPOSABLE income on EACH WEEKLY pay check.

their tax rate has been lowered, so when they DO PAY TAXES each week, LESS TAXES will be taken in the short run. This will also mean a LOWER TAX RETURN, because of the forced, interest free, tax savings plan will get less money paid into it each week.

119. An american abroad - October 23, 2008

Dear Independent American,
I won’t try to change your mind on what Obama or McCain will or won’t do with taxes when elected. At the moment it is all second guessing and without the details which neither candidate is giving these are all speculations based on what you believe and not any facts.
The 53% is the highest theoretically possible percent rate for personal income tax. Although it sounds scary it only applies to taxable income of some where around 1 trillion Euros so I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it. The average income tax rate is around 20%. Add 1.1% solidarity tax( 5.5% of income tax) for paying the reunification. I considered myself upper middle class and paid about 25% income tax up to my retirement. The value-added tax is 19% and is charged on all good and services with a few exceptions (food, nonalcholic beverages,books and newspapers are 7%). These are paid by rich and poor alike and just paid by the end consumer. The payroll taxes (social security and health insurance) are hard to equate to percentages because they only are based up to a certain income level. If you earn just around the cut off value then of course the percentage of total income is higher than if you earn more. And if you really wanted to start nit-picking there are also consumer taxes, such as taxes on energy, oil (oil products) and gas, beer, champaign, coffee, alcholol ,tabacco just to name a few. I have read that the average worker in Germany gets to keep 58% of his paycheck. It is terrible but there a worst places (Sweden for example). About 5 years ago I was considering moving to Florida and working for our company there. I figured out that if they would pay me the same as I was making in Germany (which they wouldn’t), I would save so much money on taxes that my wife would not have to work and we would still have about the same net income.
Still all things considered life isn’t bad here. I can still afford to come back to the States on vacation.
People no matter where they are bitch about taxes (me included) but very few people move to other countries because of them.
I hope I could shed a bit of light on german taxes, its very complicated.

120. Independent American - October 23, 2008

Dear American Abroad,

Thanks for the info. I found Germany to be a beautiful country, by the way (the villages like Bechstedstrasse and Weimar in Thuringia) and the German people very friendly and polite. I haven’t travelled extensively (Russia, Germany, Canada, Mexico, Sweden is all) but Germany is the best place I’ve been outside the USA.

121. Asking questions is now….naive « Welcome to Lindy’s Blog: Where Mom is Always Right - October 23, 2008

[…] thought this post by The Federalist did a commendable job in not only discussing the accuracy of applying the term […]

122. DaleS - October 23, 2008

Vladisaw we know the basics of how taxes work after all we have to deal with it every year. Yes we pay in and if we pay in too much we get a rebate. That’s NOT in question here.

What IS in question is if in that wash your end result is $0 paid in AND Obama’s tax plan results in that person receiving money then that is in fact a handout and welfare under the guise of “Tax Credits”. Another economist or tax guy today (wish i could recall the name) was explaining the inner workings of Obama’s socialist plan though he didnt’ call it that. He was very objective in his explaination. The end result was Obama’s plan would reduce if not eliminate Social Security taxes on some and essentially have that other 5% (of which i’m not a part of) be essentially paying for the Social Security beneifits of those not paying. Again..this is a TERRIBLE IDEA.

CAGW is independant and non-partisan. They’ve been around since the 80’s. The following is quoted directly from them:
“Sen. McCain has never requested a single special-interest, pork-barrel earmark in his 25 years in Congress, while Sen. Obama has requested $740 million in earmarks in just three years.”

“Sen. McCain’s status as a “Taxpayer Hero” with a CCAGW Lifetime Vote Rating of 88 percent with Sen. Obama’s Lifetime Rating of just 18 percent when it comes to cutting spending and voting to reduce taxes.”

These guys are in McCain’s pocket..check them out…they exists to bring out the truth of what these politicians SAY vs what they DO! Obama in only three years has requested $740 MILLION dollars in pork projects and you have McCain in 25 years not having been involved in requestion ONE!!! Actions that match words are what we need! Don’t come rambling on about your feelings just bring the FACTS!

123. DaleS - October 23, 2008

LOL I pulled a “Biden”. I was saying CAGW ARE NOT IN McCains pocket…doh..see someone will come along and completely take the discussion to a whole other placed based on that typo.

124. Economics: McCain vs Obama - Page 6 - Demopolis Live - October 23, 2008

[…] Is Obama a Socialist? September 9, 2008 Posted by federalist in Taxation, Uncategorized. trackback Today I had an inquiry from a journalist. I dont know whether she will use my response, but since Im always eager to share my opinion here are the questions, followed by my answer.Some have criticized Barack Obamas tax plan, which includes income redistribution taking income from the top 5% and giving it to the bottom 95% as a socialist proposition. In your opinion, is it? And in your opinion, would it be effective? Is Barack Obama a socialist? If so, why? If not, why not? It is fair to characterize the Obama tax reforms as socialist, in that they both increase wealth redistribution and increase the proportion of wealth allocated by government. The Obama campaign claims that its plan would reduce tax revenue as a fraction of GDP, but this is misleading: A significant amount of the Obama tax plan consists of new refundable tax credits, which are effectively welfare payments handled by the IRS. To illustrate why this is a socialist practice, consider the extreme case in which the tax code did nothing but take property from the top 5% of earners and distribute it as tax refunds to everyone else. The Obama campaign would argue that in this case the government has no (net) tax revenue, but this arrangement meets every definition of classical socialism since the government controls the distribution of a majority of wealth. Would the Obama wealth transfers be effective? That depends upon ones objectives. Such a plan could be very effective in getting him elected if three conditions were satisfied: Voters believe that they have no probability of ending up in the top 5%. […]

125. QuietTheUprising - October 24, 2008

Is Obama a socialist? Not if you ask one:


126. DaleS - October 24, 2008

QuietTheUprising..first of all do you realize that article paints Obama as actually “worse than a Socialist”? Read it thoroughly.

Secondly there any many definitions for Socialism. Here is one pulled straight from Dictionary.com:

“So”cial*ism\, n. [Cf. F. socialisme.] A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

[Socialism] was first applied in England to Owen’s theory of social reconstruction, and in France to those also of St. Simon and Fourier . . . The word, however, is used with a great variety of meaning, . . . even by economists and learned critics. The general tendency is to regard as socialistic any interference undertaken by society on behalf of the poor, . . . radical social reform which disturbs the present system of private property . . . The tendency of the present socialism is more and more to ally itself with the most advanced democracy. –Encyc. Brit.

We certainly want a true history of socialism, meaning by that a history of every systematic attempt to provide a new social existence for the mass of the workers. –F. Harrison.”

This definition describes VERY much of what Obama is proposing in his policies. He’s not going to come out and say…”Hey i’m a Socialist”. By your own article…he’s worse than a “Socialist”.

127. justsurfing - October 24, 2008


If you’re still around… there’s a certain agreement here. There is going to be a “tie” between social conservative values and capitalism. The more the country slips off it’s moral moorings… and moves towards sexual anarchy… the less America will be able to vote for capitalistic candidates.

America will want “freedom to” engage in various sexual acts and insist that the government favor them and make them the law of the land. Abortion on demand, homosexual marriage, etc.

More and more, actually, in a psychological sense… Americans will want government to protect them from God.

They will sacrifice their freedom to assuage their own guilt and to seek to have the government confirm to them that they are making moral choices – which conservatives will tell them is sin.

So, for the sake of a slide into a moral abyss… the nation will sell it’s soul into the hands of a socialist… as the slide into moral anarchy persists.

The same people who tell us the truth that abortion is murder, homosexuality is sin… are the sane ones who tell us that, also, capitalism is the means by which we maintain democracy and freedom.

You’re right. The more people prefer sin to righteousness… the more willing they are to sell their souls – and their country – and their freedom… as they seek cover in government from the truth of the reality that what they are doing… is wrong.

An immoral nation cannot support capitalism or democracy.

I’d have to agree with you. People will vote for social “justice”… because the slide into immorality… produces poverty and a whole host of social ills.

They don’t admit responsibility for their sin. They won’t take responsibility for their own actions. They want government to make them feel moral. And they think government should provide everything for them while government is at it… because they have given up every credo of personal responsibility… as they became immoral.

Socialism is the end result of the immorality of a people… and it will lead to dictatorship.

People who are not good… who are not moral… cannot remain free.


128. justsurfing - October 24, 2008


Please explain to me how people in the 95% will see more in their paycheck – when they lose their jobs. When those jobs cease to exist. When their factories are shut down and the jobs are shipped to Mexico. When the restaurants close because the people at the manufacturing jobs aren’t going out to eat. When the shops close because the people who lost those manufacturing jobs no longer shop at those stores.

How does more taxation that drives jobs out of our area increase the take home pay of a paycheck that no longer exists because the jobs are lost??

Think about it. You can build something in America and pay 13% more of the profit to the American government… OR… you can ship those jobs out of America… and pay much lower taxes.

What would you do?? Would you give the government a 13% raise you can’t afford… or will you shut down your business… send everyone home… or just shut the doors and ship the job overseas??

Because.. guess what… Obama can’t hold jobs hostage. He can’t put a gun to the economy’s head and say, “You’re not moving!!”… as he raises taxes on the top 5%. There will be a market reaction. And I don’t think you’ll like it… and I don’t think anyone is going to benefit in the longrun.

Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. Nothing. That’s what people will get from Obama. Nothing.

That’s what their paychecks will be.


129. federalist - October 24, 2008

One point that gets talked around in this debate is the following: Every dollar taken by the government and transferred or spent to somebody else reduces the total wealth of the country. This is the Economic equivalent to the Second Law of Thermodynamics: You can’t pump wealth through a government and come out with more of it than you had to begin with. The best you can try to do is limit the “heat loss” of the transfer.

Therefore anytime somebody advocates a socialist policy they are in a sense saying, “Yes, this will reduce the size of the economic pie, but we’re willing to accept that in order to give everyone a more equal piece of what remains.”

Socialism: More equal pieces of a smaller pie.

130. DaleS - October 27, 2008

Interesting article here…and the onion layers continue to peal off.


131. Knowledge is Power - October 27, 2008

I’ve never seen so many discredited “facts” and “theorys” in one web page in my entire life. Every single one of you needs to visit http://www.factcheck.org/ before you spout of all your Replican OR Democratic rhetoric.

I won’t be voting either candidate because neither one of them have a comprehensive plan to avert the economic disaster heading our way in the NEAR future. If you haven’t visited this site, you need too:


Also, anyone who talks about the national debt as if it is something that is reducable doesn’t understand the money creation machine that powers are nation (Fractional Reserve Banking System). Search youtube.com or videos.google.com for a video entitled “Money as Debt” it will be a huge eye-opener.

132. Knowledge is Power - October 27, 2008

In addition, anyone talking big about how “Socialist” Obama is needs to take a real careful look at how our current government is running the country. The bail-out is $700b worth of wealth distribution to the same bankers and corporations who made the bad bets that got us here in the 1st place. Yet, none of you are decrying this. You are being robbed blind and not saying a single word.

133. DaleS - October 29, 2008

“Knowledge is Power” you come off as quite arrogant sir. I find it interesting that you condescend to all of the post and site http://www.factcheck.org as the be-all end all. Here’s a clue my friend..that’s just another web site as well. Here you are claiming all other sources of information on the web are absurd but this one is completely correct. LOL

I’ve read fact check in the past and yes they do present some good information. There are plenty of places however that say they have a strong liberal bias. Now before you go off and start screaming that’s ridiculous you should look into where their funding comes from. I’m not saying they’re all wrong but if you read their stuff they do have a bias. I wish they would just list the facts and leave out their opinion but they have far more opinion mixed in than just facts.

I also haven’t seen anyone here cheering on the $700b handed out to the banks…we don’t want that either so i’m not sure why you went on about it. It’s BAD too…

134. erik jay - October 29, 2008

This is reasoned discussion in the 21st century? Some “Brant” fellow here thinks that because there was a 90% tax rate on “the rich” in the past, that means it worked. Ahem, it is not even possible to CACULATE all the wealth that was NOT created because of that onerous rate. Say what you will (and you will) about Arthur Laffer and Reaganomics (some of which was truly awful, but not all or even most), the fact is that when tax rates go DOWN to the appropriate (low) level, tax revenues go UP (because there’s a reason to make the next dollar, now that 90% isn’t being stolen). Because the country stumbled one day to the next during the Depression, which every non-ideological economist knows was extended by FDR’s ludicrous policies, doesn’t mean anything was done “right” at all. A similar thought experiment: How many people has the FDA killed by refusing to approve new treatments and devices? Also impossible to know precisely, but it’s doubtless in the millions. On balance, they don’t “save” any lives at all. I challenge control-freaks from either fringe to think about the vast creative potential in our country and its people that the government chokes to death. Think about what could have been. Sad.

135. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

@ DaleS

Taken directly from factcheck.org

“Our Mission

We are a nonpartisan, nonprofit “consumer advocate” for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics. We monitor the factual accuracy of what is said by major U.S. political players in the form of TV ads, debates, speeches, interviews and news releases. Our goal is to apply the best practices of both journalism and scholarship, and to increase public knowledge and understanding.

The Annenberg Political Fact Check is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania. The APPC was established by publisher and philanthropist Walter Annenberg in 1994 to create a community of scholars within the University of Pennsylvania that would address public policy issues at the local, state and federal levels.

The APPC accepts NO funding from business corporations, labor unions, political parties, lobbying organizations or individuals. It is funded primarily by the Annenberg Foundation.”

In addition, every single one of you claiming that Obama is a socialist due to a phrase about “spreading the wealth” hasn’t done their own research. Instead you blindly follow your party’s rhetoric without question.


Somehow the “spreading the wealth” statement TAKEN COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT turned into “re-distributing wealth” and outcry’s of Socialism, Marxism or on the far end Communism.

If any of you did your own independent studies, using non-partisan sources, such as factcheck.org OR others available you would probably feel pretty foolish and put down your pitchforks and torches and stop chasing this retarded “Socialism” ghost and start looking at the real issues.

You implying that websites like factcheck.org that contradict your facts and theories are funded by some nefarious liberal machine is completely without cited evidence and as such pure SPECULATION.

Our great Nation is in a time of absolutely enormous economical peril that NEITHER candidate has a comprehensive plan to get us out of the mire. That is why I will NOT be voting for EITHER John McCain or Barack Obama.

136. Paul - October 29, 2008

you left out a criteria:

4. Voters in the bottom 95% actually believe he will lower their taxes.

137. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

Also, at “erik jay” what do you think is fair tax?

Your statement:

“I challenge control-freaks from either fringe to think about the vast creative potential in our country and its people that the government chokes to death. Think about what could have been. Sad.”

This sounds like you think taxes are unfairly high. So… who is going to pay for infrastructure, schools, etc. etc.?

In any case our monetary system (and most other countries) is completely unsustainable and inherently inflationary, and its only a matter of time before the music stops and the system collapses.

138. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

@ Paul

A one-liner about “Voters in the bottom 95% actually believing he will lower their taxes.”

So that makes me think that you believe Obama is going to raise taxes. Do you have a source or are you going off pure speculation like most of the proven “facts” infesting this thread.

139. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

This blog post sums it up nicely:


The key statement being that:

“If you think a progressive, fair share tax plan is Socialism, then we have been a socialist nation for 100 years now.”

140. federalist - October 29, 2008

“Knowledge is Power,” you are missing a critical point in this discussion: We are debating marginal policies, not the status quo. Most people will agree that the United States government is more socialist now than it was at its founding. The question in this election is which direction we will take it from here. Obama advocates policies that will make the government even more socialist.

141. DaleS - October 29, 2008

Knowleged is Power I’m well aware of factcheck.org’s policy. They’re not going to come out and say ..”Hey we’re biased” but I believe a lot of their articles come off as biased.

There are also plenty of sources that show a link between the Anenberg foundation, Obama and Ayers. Some well written articles below:




I”m not saying Factcheck.org is a bad site. i’m saying they present a great deal of OPINION along with the facts. And it is a FACT NOT SPECULATION that you can find a direct tie between the Anenberg foudation, Ayers and Obama. How you interpret that is where it gets tricky

As far as Obama being a socialist this article is quite interesting. Though i’m sure Obama wasn’t really part of this group he just happend to jump in the picture there.


142. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

I understand where you are coming from Federalist, but my main point is this thread is full of the average Joe Six Pack that is screaming Socialism like it’s the 40s. Our government, like you said has been more Socialist now than it was at inception.

Both candidates tax policies only continue this trend, in mostly the same ways, the only difference is who gets taxed more or less. The big difference between the two candidates? How earners in the top bracket are taxed. That’s really it, and the “Joe the Plumber” brigade are ready to jump in and say out right that Obama is going to tax them more and give it to welfare recipients. That’s utterly ridiculous and so speculative it borders on insanity.

You want to talk about taxation and how unfair it is? The $700b bailout. That is taxation. The inflationary nature of our monetary system and the Federal Reserve’s “bail out every company regardless if they are insolvent or solvent” policies are more taxation. Where is the outrage?

I know this discussion is about marginal policies, but its just indicative of the major problem in this election. Both sides are so busy slinging mud at each other, your average voter (Who typically do not do their own research.) has no idea what the real issues are. They are too busy being proud to be BLUE or proud to be RED. It’s a real shame because the “change we need” starts in the minds of each citizen, not in our politicians.

143. Frank - October 29, 2008

disgusted with mccain said:
concerned citizen x suggesting that I’m a pro obama plant is absurd. this is how paranoid and suspicious people have become. I’m just an average American Very concerned with the direction this country is going and basically it’s going straight down the toilet!!!

Yeah, and you voting for Obama just makes it get there faster. The guy is a Socialist (at the very least Socialist ideas). Has extremely questionable associates (you can NOT dispute this). Has lied over and over again (agreed McCain has too). Our enemies (or at very least not real friendly) have expressed a desire for him to get into office ie. Ahmadinejad (Iran), Putin (Russia), Kim JOng Il (N. Korean), Chavez (Venezuela) and you want to accommodate these guys by voting for him?! Voted against fund our troops that even HIS VP candidate told him would COST AMERICAN LIVES, now that’s patriotic! I could go on and on but I think I made my point, McCain may not be the best but Obama sure as hell ain’t the answer

144. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

What Socialist ideas Frank? Can you list a reliable source? Do you have any credible evidence for any of the statements you just made? You are making wild claims just like the rest of the people in this thread are.

I see more speculation, but no facts.

145. federalist - October 29, 2008

“Knowledge is Power,” you’re late to the debate; this has already been amply demonstrated. Even if we restrict ourselves just to Obama’s official campaign propaganda (ignoring all other statements and actions that might illuminate his true philosophy and intentions) we can see that Obama intends to use the government to transfer more wealth from the country’s most productive citizens to a majority of less wealthy.

146. DaleS - October 29, 2008

Knowledge is power so I guess you’re just ignoring the article I mentioned because it didnt’ come from your bible “factcheck.org”?



Mind you i’m not putthing this out there saying it’s indisputable because hey..it’s an article written by people who have opinions. Unlike Factcheck.org which is an indisputable bible written by the disciples.

Forget the fact that the article shows newspaper clippings with Obama in pictures with this “New party” and his statements. No doubt all just happenstance yet again.

Regardess of any of this. If you ACTUALLY look at Obama’s policies as well as his associations it’s not a leap at all to call him a Socialist. And you keep bringing up the 700B bailout like the people on this forum back it…WE DON’T!.. I’m not defending Bush..he’s been miserable as have been both of the parties.

147. Frank - October 29, 2008

What wild claims? You dispute Putin, Chavez, Jong and Ahmadinejad have endorsed this guy? When was the last time you read a paper or listened to Ahmadinejad spewing this at the U.N.? You are disputing he voted against funding our troops against the advise of Biden. Hell, freakin Biden even said so, so I guess you will question his facts too! The “redistibution” of wealth is a Socialist ideal, read a dictionary buddy. And don’t use the left tactic by saying it was taking out of context, it wasn’t and isn’t those are his exact words, yes, I listen and I read unlike you. You renounce ever source people quote EXCEPT your own, that in itself is a Communist ideal, are you one? You are a hack my friend and just like Obama, censor those who oppose you. Oh, let me guess, you want me to state where I heard Obama has censored anybody. Read the paper, check the news, even CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS etc (not exactly unbiased stations). have reports all over the place about how Obama and Biden have both told WFTV out of Orlando and KYWTV in Philadelphia that they will NOT invite these stations to interview again, the reason is because they didn’t like there questions. Dude, your so called factcheck.org ain’t the only unbiased publication out there and unbiased may be a stretch but I’ll do some more research for you on them and let you know what I come up with.

148. Frank - October 29, 2008

“Do you have any credible evidence for any of the statements you just made”

How in God’s green earth can you say Bill Ayers, Tony Rezco, Rev. Jerimiah Wright, ACORN, Luis Farrakhan are NOT suspect associates. You need facts for this? Ok, Rezco is in jail, Ayers was and freely admits he was part of the Weather Underground and states he and his associates bombed federal buildings etc. Do I need to ask him to produce proof about this because I’m sure he would if asked! Wright is a radical to anything else is just stupidity. Listen to his sermons, do I need to ask him to send the sound bytes to your email? Farrakhan’s hateful statements targeting Jews, whites and homosexuals is appalling, should I ask him to contact you on this, he is willing to express his views to anyone, just ask him.

149. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

Barring that this is an OPINION piece posted by the Wall Street Journal, I take issue with this statement:

“It’s a clever pitch, because it lets him pose as a middle-class tax cutter while disguising that he’s also proposing one of the largest tax increases ever on the other 5%.”

That’s grossly incorrect. Obama is planning on lett the Bush tax cuts expire that reduced earners over $250,000 from 39% to 35%.

Second of all, this entire article has been throughly debunked by FactCheck.org, you can read the article, and its CITED SOURCES in the following link.


150. Frank - October 29, 2008

Hey, Knowledge is Power, can you explain why it says this at the bottom of the factcheck.org page?

Copyright © 2003 – 2008 Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania

Didn’t Obama and Ayers sit on a board that was funded by that foundation?? Oh yeah, I need to get more facts on this….. :)

151. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

Suggesting that Factcheck.org is financed by Ayers and Obama is retarded, it has criticism of Obama claims as well. Read the site.

152. Knowledge is Power - October 29, 2008

Anything else?

153. KnIP - October 29, 2008

Also Frank.

Chavez: Debunked http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/17/usa.uselections2008?gusrc=rss&feed=politics

ACORN: Debunked: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn_accusations.html

Ayers: Debunked http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html

Rezko: Debunked http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/guilt_and_associations.html

Luis Farrakhan? Give me a break, just because he praised Obama, doesn’t mean Obama supports his ideals and world view. Stop stretching so far for connections.

Wright: Debunked http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_obama.html

Ahmadinajad and Kim Jong? Just because he would meet with them, also does not mean he supports their policies.

154. Frank - October 29, 2008

Never said factcheck.org was financed by Obama and Ayers, who’s taking things out of context???? I asked, did Obama and Ayers sit on board funded by this foundation? Talk about getting facts straight. As for anything else, haven’t heard a rebutt about my points on Bill Ayers, Tony Rezco, Rev. Jerimiah Wright, ACORN, Luis Farrakhan. Did they not send the info to you yet. I am now done, I have proven that you are a baseless windbag that dismisses anything that you do not agree with much like the Obama campaign. To argue with a fool means you become a fool yourself. Peace

155. KnIP - October 29, 2008

I just provided 6 different links disputing your so-called evidence, you to date have provided none.

This statement:

“Didn’t Obama and Ayers sit on a board that was funded by that foundation?? Oh yeah, I need to get more facts on this…..”

clearly insinuates that factcheck.org may be influenced financially or ideologically by Obama and Ayers. Of course you were able to produce no link, nor any links to the other outrageous connections your trying to make. I on the other hand, have provided information with CITED, RELIABLE, SOURCES.

I am definately not the fool here. Your original posting you attempted to make connections between these radicals and Obama. Your last post did nothing but try and insult my intelligence. Real mature. You have proven NOTHING except how well you can spew the party lines you were conditioned to say.

And as a reminder since it’s obvious you skim my postings instead of actually read them, I am not voting for McCain or Obama. If you were spewing lies and nonsense about McCain in this discussion thread, I would be correcting the record on that as well. I am for the truth, regardless if it is with or against my own personal views.

156. DaleS - October 29, 2008

Hold on KnIP there are some interesting articles about the link between Obama/Ayers and the Annenberg foundation. I listed them above but I guess you just skipped those:




On wikipedia they also mention some interesting info about the assocations.

157. DaleS - October 29, 2008

Here’s another site for you to stick in your folder “KnIP CAGW. I’ve been a member for about a year now. They were formed in the 80’s to fight wastful spending in government.

This is the home page:

To help you along here is where you can search on politicians and their “Pork barrel spending habbits”. Be sure to pull data for McCain and Obama


You like facts…so do I. These are hold cold facts. But as with anything it’s how you INTERPRET the meaning of those facts. This site isn’t directly associated with this forum discussion however It does shed light on an independant rating from an organization looking out for the people on the wasteful the spending of our politicians. On the db to the link above you’ll see all the PORK programs Obama asked for this year alone. As per CAGW they are non-partisan. See their ratings and general information on these two candidates below.

“Sen. McCain has never requested a single special-interest, pork-barrel earmark in his 25 years in Congress, while Sen. Obama has requested $740 million in earmarks in just three years.”

“Sen. McCain’s status as a “Taxpayer Hero” with a CCAGW Lifetime Vote Rating of 88 percent with Sen. Obama’s Lifetime Rating of just 18 percent when it comes to cutting spending and voting to reduce taxes.”

158. DaleS - October 29, 2008

One thing you and I agree on KnIP..our monetary system is in horrible shape and getting worse. My real desire would be for Bob Barr to get elected because he really wants to take us back to the constitution.

Both candidates are going to spend more money. Neither of them are taking about the HUUUUUUUGE deficit we have and what is going to be done about it. Instead they’re going to spend more. My only reassurance with McCain is that he at least has been talking about cutting spending and his information presented by CAGW says a great deal of what he actually does vs what he says he’ll do whereas Obama is just looking to spend away.

I’m so sick of the COMPLETE lack of accountability and responsibility in our government.

159. KnIP - October 29, 2008


Thank your a some real dialogue, this is how it should be. Nobody will ever agree on everything, but tackling the BIG issues together is the way to go. Monetary policy in this nation will be what brings it down.

If you want to see something that will really blow your mind, watch this video:

Money as Debt


160. KnIP - October 29, 2008

Typo :

“Thank you for some real dialogue, this is how it should be.”

161. DaleS - October 30, 2008

Our government overcomplicates everything. Some of this is due to ineptitude some due to deceipt I believe to create such complexity that special interest can find loop holes. They create process and then instead of looking at those processes and improving/cleaning them the just add more process until it becomes a 6000 page document. Then someone comes along and says..”heck I don’t want to try and read and understand that monster, I’m just going to start another 6000 page document”.

Simplicity is a key. Get rid of all of that tax crap and simplify it. Not a new concept but it’s the best one.

Lowest Earners: Pay no Federal Tax (Give these people a chance to get on their feet but make it such that there is incentive to work harder/better to earn more)
Reach a threshold: Pay gradual increase until you hit the cap
Cap: Pay 10% flat tax

Have very few if any exceptions/write offs (Possibly things for medical)

Example: 0 to 25k : No fed tax
25k+ to 90k: Pay gradual linear incline starting at 1% increasing to 9%
70k+ and higher: Flat 10%

Something like that would be fair to me with the thresholds being determined of course.

162. DaleS - October 30, 2008

Typo in example last number I meant to change to 90k+. See there I modified it. Our government would have left this the way it was and created a new document describing it again :)

163. rufustfirefly - November 2, 2008

These posts really just show how desperate the Republican party has become in this election. “Socialism”, is a system where the government owns all industry, owns the means of production. Saying that rolling back Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy is “socialism” is either desperate, or ignorant, or both.
If your definition of socialism is that broad, then anyone could be called a socialist. By that definition, Sarah Palin is a socialist because she was governor of a state that taxed corporations and “redistributed” the income to citizens. John Mccain is a socialist because he favored the government putting money into our banks to bail them out. Also, Ronald Reagan was a socialist because his administration supported the earned income tax credit. Let’s call this what it really is. For right wingers, “socialist” is just a bad word to call a politician you don’t like, and it can be used against any politician for any reason.

164. reason - February 21, 2009




165. Timothy P, Bautista - April 22, 2009

I think that whether you an extreme American from the left or the right I believe that the main question has already been answered, and Obama is definitely a socialist in the European tradition. He advocates governmental control of all avenues of societal structure such as finance, trade, health, and education. Like other European socialist nations he tries to hide is socialist agenda by having some privately owned businesses, financial markets, and stock markets. Unfortunately for Mr. Obama he gives himself away by attempting to openly control these institutional illusions through government as well.

166. A GTL™ Tuesday Guest Column By “Bad Dog” — “The Republican Double Standard” | THE GUN TOTING LIBERAL™ - September 16, 2009

[…] financial crash or give people things like healthcare instead of a police state in an endless war, it’s socialism (The […]

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